Thought I understood GFCIs ...

[jaggedben]

... but maybe I don't.

A GFCI outlet is right next to the switch for the sink garbage disposal.
An appliance (e.g. toaster) plugged into the outlet works at all times, including when the Test button is pressed in and the outlet is not reset.
The disposal only works when the outlet is reset.

Aren't GFCI outlets supposed to de-energize the outlet itself and not just the downstream devices?

I'm presuming some kind of miswiring, but can't figure out which kind of mistake would have the outlet still working at all.
Haven't had a chance to open it up.

 

[augie47]

With the earlier version of GFCI receptacles, if you accidentally connected the line to the load side, pressing the button would "trip" the GFCI but power would still be present on the outlet. (I believe downsteream loads would be disconnection) Does this possibility address then issue ?(later versions would not allow that)

 

[LarryFine]

An appliance (e.g. toaster) plugged into the outlet works at all times, including when the Test button is pressed in and the outlet is not reset.
The disposal only works when the outlet is reset.

Sounds like the line and load terminals were connected reversed.

 

[jaggedben]

I sort of expected that might be the answer but google was saying the outlet just wouldn't work at all. Makes sense if it depends on the age of the receptacle. (Too much chaff, not enough wheat from google these days.)

 

[LarryFine]

I sort of expected that might be the answer but google was saying the outlet just wouldn't work at all. Makes sense if it depends on the age of the receptacle.

The older ones merely fed the load terminals directly from the same relay contacts as the receptacle slots; the newer ones have separate contacts for the slots and the load terminals, so they're only joined when the GFCI is set.

 

[augie47]

Years back I mentioned that "flaw" to a P&S rep and he asked if I ever read the install instructions (silly question). He pointed out the instructions called, for a load to be placed on the GFCI receptacle and assure it was disconnected when the "test" buttonm was pressed. I'm unsure if that instruction still exists with the newer devices.

 

[ramsy]

The disposal only works when the outlet is reset.

Protecting the disposer is a design choice, not a code requirement. I've tried it both ways, and have reliably nuisance tripped Leviton's AGTR-2 --a difficult task with good wiring-- by load feeding disposer & microwave together ~5 seconds.

 

[ramsy]

Replacing the GFCI is most likely a code violation.

Since existing property does't require AFCI's's in the fuse box, new GFCI reset devices are not allowed in kitchen or laundry on standard breakers.

IIRC since 2014 NEC code cycle, replacing kitchen or laundry outlets with newer GFCI's violates 406.4(D)4 & 210.12 which requires a different type AF/GF outlet in these locations. I have used Leviton AGTR-2 for several years.

 

[Little Bill]

Replacing the GFCI is most likely a code violation.

Since existing property does't require AFCI's's in the fuse box, new GFCI reset devices are not allowed in kitchen or laundry on standard breakers.

IIRC since 2014 NEC code cycle, replacing kitchen or laundry outlets with newer GFCI's violates 406.4(D)4 & 210.12 which requires a different type AF/GF outlet in these locations. I have used Leviton AGTR-2 for several years.

Carry on then!

 

[LarryFine]

Replacing the GFCI is most likely a code violation.

Don't replace it, just rewire it properly.

 

[gar]

220206-1713 EST

I may not be up on the latest GFCI outlet, but in some recent times there was a redesign that was designed to avoid the described problem.

Without AC power to the correct input terminals, and with the receptacle shipped in the RESET state, and then if power was connected to the output terminals instead of the input terminals there was no path for power to get to the electronics, and the receptacle could not be RESET. Therefore, by making the RESET function electronic and it being unresettable with no power applied to the input terminals you had means to prevent incorrect installation.

However, this still has a flaw. If you first apply power to the correct input terminals, RESET the receptacle, and then rewire the receptacle in the wrong direction an excessive leakage current on the outlet sockets will not trip the GFCI function. It now takes a leakage current on the apparent output terminals ( really input terminals, but now being output ) to trip the GFCI.

.

 

[kwired]

220206-1713 EST

I may not be up on the latest GFCI outlet, but in some recent times there was a redesign that was designed to avoid the described problem.

Without AC power to the correct input terminals, and with the receptacle shipped in the RESET state, and then if power was connected to the output terminals instead of the input terminals there was no path for power to get to the electronics, and the receptacle could not be RESET. Therefore, by making the RESET function electronic and it being unresettable with no power applied to the input terminals you had means to prevent incorrect installation.

However, this still has a flaw. If you first apply power to the correct input terminals, RESET the receptacle, and then rewire the receptacle in the wrong direction an excessive leakage current on the outlet sockets will not trip the GFCI function. It now takes a leakage current on the apparent output terminals ( really input terminals, but now being output ) to trip the GFCI.

.

Not certain, though it sounds plausible. Thing is you are supposed to test that GFCI with the test button. If you reverse wired the line and load it won't reset after testing it until you correct the miswiring.