time and materials basis

[mshields]

Frequently, as the engineer of record, if we question the labor on a COR, we require that the sub perform the work on a time and materials basis.

Let me preface this by saying, every aspect of this business including mine has that which goes on behind the curtain so to speak. I respect most of the contractors I work with and I know that they often take jobs at very small margins in order to get their foot in the door. Change orders are how they make up for that and to some extent, it's perfectly understandable. That said:

I always feel like this is like having the fox guard the chicken coop, envisioning that the workers report back to a foreman on how long it took them, and the foreman putting down whatever number suits him, perhaps double what it actually was. I?m not saying any particular contractor necessarily operates that way, but human nature being what it is, what checks are typically in place to assure that that does not happen.

Bottom line, are we kidding ourselves more often than not when we request work to be performed on a time and material basis that we're going to get an accurate gauge of the actual time spent and that our clients will be billed appropriately. OR are we better off just negotiating the price if it seems out of line.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Ponchik]

IMO, time and material is not as profitable as flat rate/contract amount...what ever you want to call it.

Besides when you say "

OR are we better off just negotiating the price if it seems out of line.

compared to what, it is out of line.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with Edward. Except in some weird cases T&M can be better. Especially if you add more to the 'per hour' as per man.

 

[LEO2854]

Frequently, as the engineer of record, if we question the labor on a COR, we require that the sub perform the work on a time and materials basis.

Let me preface this by saying, every aspect of this business including mine has that which goes on behind the curtain so to speak. I respect most of the contractors I work with and I know that they often take jobs at very small margins in order to get their foot in the door. Change orders are how they make up for that and to some extent, it's perfectly understandable. That said:

I always feel like this is like having the fox guard the chicken coop, envisioning that the workers report back to a foreman on how long it took them, and the foreman putting down whatever number suits him, perhaps double what it actually was. I?m not saying any particular contractor necessarily operates that way, but human nature being what it is, what checks are typically in place to assure that that does not happen.

Bottom line, are we kidding ourselves more often than not when we request work to be performed on a time and material basis that we're going to get an accurate gauge of the actual time spent and that our clients will be billed appropriately. OR are we better off just negotiating the price if it seems out of line.

Thanks,

Mike

The good news is that it is very busy here in mass, so you will have and should have a much harder time finding subs that are willing to work at T&M. Requiring subs to work T&M means we need electrical work done, but you do not derserve to be paid well for your profession.

Instead of beating down subs and accusing them of being untrustworthy, why not simply ask for a price for the complete scope of the work.

The grand total for this work will be $12,347.03 with payment terms.

Electrical work is not a race to see who can do it the fastest, electrical work should be done right the first time every time, the men need to be given enough time to do it right.

Change orders; Give the contractor a task list and get a grand total price for the entire scope of the work.

Any contractor doing T&M right now is losing his shirt needlessly.

 

[petersonra]

I prefer a negotiated amount. Usually fairer and simpler.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have done 35 years of work of which 99% is T&M. I agree with the others that set price is more profitable and a lot easier to deal with. Keeping track of job materials and hours gets hard some time, at least for small jobs. No doubt people cheat. If you leave early one day I would bet the job gets charged in many cases. We try and be fair but I know the hours get a bit off especially when you been to 3 or 4 jobs a day. This is peanuts tho compared to what can happen on a large scale job.

I am doing a house now that is over $5 million and probably $500,000 or more electrically. No plans when we started and we have been working on it on and off now for over 6 months and still do not have a full set of plans nor is the rough in done. It is a royal PITA to keep track of that job.

 

[John120/240]

I have done 35 years of work of which 99% is T&M. I agree with the others that set price is more profitable and a lot easier to deal with. Keeping track of job materials and hours gets hard some time, at least for small jobs. No doubt people cheat. If you leave early one day I would bet the job gets charged in many cases. We try and be fair but I know the hours get a bit off especially when you been to 3 or 4 jobs a day. This is peanuts tho compared to what can happen on a large scale job.

I am doing a house now that is over $5 million and probably $500,000 or more electrically. No plans when we started and we have been working on it on and off now for over 6 months and still do not have a full set of plans nor is the rough in done. It is a royal PITA to keep track of that job.

That would be a Double Royal PITA to keep track of. Would it work to keep track of different areas: Kitchen, Mst Bed, other bed, Living room etc ?

What size is the service & how many panels/sub panels if I may ask ?