Training The Public

[bphgravity]

About two weeks ago, a new gigantic orange building had their grand opening in my town. Along with all the great deals and discounts, the store displayed a schedule of "free public training classes" on various installations for the home to be given at the store with "team members" of the particular department the installtion includes.

Among these classes were, "how to change out fused panels with circuits breakers", "building and installing ceiling fans and light fixtures", and "replacing receptacles and switches."

Yesterday, out of curiosity, I attended the class on changing out a fused panel. Two store employees, a bunch of store product and approximately 30 persons were present for the course. During the presentation, many questions of the "what if" nature came up from various people, and the only answer they got was, "just follow what we say, and don't do anything else." I found myself to be very dizzy and sick by the end of the class. I easily noted at least 3 possible violations, and probably a dozen issues not discussed that are pertainent to performing this type of installtion.

Other than the obvious, here's my beef. I had to jump through flamming hoops and file 400 pages of paper work to become a state certified electrical course provider. I have to follow a strict line of rules and procedures when conducting and presenting my classes. I am required to report every class participant, and keep records of attendance for at least three years. The paper work is endless.

What gives this store the authority to present such classes? I can understand a crash course on tile installtion, but electrical?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Training The Public

You should be scared.I would have looked to see if any in attendance were neighbors and if so go home and check your fire insurance.What should scare you even more is the bad advise they give home owners every day.They should be required to post a large sign as to the quailifications of there employees.Without seeing an old service first just how can you offer advice on repairing or replacing ?

 

[iwire]

Re: Training The Public

I think they are allowed to do this because it is free, no different than me giving a friend advice.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Training The Public

I would think far more of big orange if they at least hired a journeyman to conduct this class.
As to FREE ,nothing is free,they received value by getting a customer to there store.The chances of him / her buying something even if not electrical is high

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Training The Public

I would think far more of big orange if they at least hired a journeyman to conduct this class

Jim,

IMO, No matter who the teacher is, giving out this kind of information without knowing the person's capabilities (or IQ) is like handing a child a loaded Gun.


Bill

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Training The Public

Originally posted by bill addiss:

No matter who the teacher is, giving out this kind of information without knowing the person's capabilities (or IQ) is like handing a child a loaded Gun.

This is exactly my point. I know anyone can walk into these type of stores and walk out with whatever they want, no questions asked. My concern is the false sense of training and education provided by these classes. Not all, but some people will think twice about doing a job themselves once they see the extensive and complicated materials and equipment required. These classes give the impression that the job is easy, a DIY type installation.

I guess what it comes down to is that a little bit of information can be a lot more dangerous than none.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: Training The Public

Bryan,

I see another possibility here that may be even more upsetting. I'll bet that some of the 'Attendees' work as Handymen or Contractors (non-Electrical) and are looking to do this type of work for others.

Bill

 

[Guest]

Re: Training The Public

In California Home Depot (and Expo) is a licensed contractor. If they are giving classes, in my opinion their classes should be delivered at a higher standard than that of a neighbor helping a neighbor. HD, et al in my opinion should use the same care and curriculum that a contractor would use if giving a class.

FYI: Expo is like Home Depot on steroids. The best stuff at Home Depot will be the baseline stuff at Expo. Expo gets pretty high end. They supervise jobs too.

Home Depot turned California contracting on its ear when it started taking on contracts for all kinds of specialty work under their GC license. HD forced a reinterpretation of the work that GC's are allowed to take on in CA. Before a GC could only take on contracts with three or more trades. After the HD decision GC's were allowed to take on specialty contracts but have to sub the work out to specialty contractors for the actual work. For example before HD challenged the CA CSLB a GC could not take on a contract for a water heater only; or for a ceiling fan only. You had to have a specialty license like plumbing to take on plumbing only jobs, or electrical to take on electrical only jobs. HD turned it all upside down. They prevailed.

HD/Expo will do things that we think are wrong, but if challenged by the authorities they might just get the law changed or reinterpreted to fit their business model.

Is HD/Expo licensed in other states?

 

[roger]

Re: Training The Public

awwt,

HD, et al in my opinion should use the same care and curriculum that a contractor would use if giving a class.

what licensed Electrical Contractor in his right mind would give a class to the unknowing DIYers, or as Bill says, someone wanting to get around the law/s?

Here in NC no person or entity can enter into or offer to contract electrical work with out a state license and the qualified individual holding that license must be an "active part" (that was an abreviated description) of the business, not someone in another location or state.

Roger

 

[Guest]

Re: Training The Public

In my opinion HD should be held to a higher standard than your average supply house. In my opinion their classes should not be run by clerks. Personally I would discourage HD giving hands on advice to DIY's on how to physically wire something-- especially in a generic group setting.

HD does not get around the laws. They change the laws-- or they get the AHJ to publicly change the AHJ's interpretation of the laws. HD does what it feels is legal and proper. If they are challenged they stand up for what they think is right. So far they have prevailed in CA.

Many EC's run multi-state operations under one business name. So do GC's.

If HD is licensed in more than one state I don't know if each state license falls under one RMO or if each state's HD has its own RMO for each state license.

 

[mjf]

Re: Training The Public

Originally posted by bphgravity:


I guess what it comes down to is that a little bit of information can be a lot more dangerous than none.

 

[jes25]

Re: Training The Public

I truly believe that the DIY trend involving electrical is at epidemic porportions, I alone have been in the trade only 8 years and I could go on forever with dangerous stories and problematic scenarios, I am sure most of you do as well. I believe we need to unite to get laws changed. Possibly a law restricting purchase of certain electrical supplies to licensed contractors. In my area it is this way with furnaces, why not panels?

I have thought of setting up an NPO doing public messages on the hazards and the facts of what they are messing with. I dont know about you guys but I would be willing to chip in some money time etc. to get the msg. out there or a law changed.

 

[tonyi]

Re: Training The Public

IMO, if localities demanded inspections on anything beyond the most simple device R&R it would solve a lot of problems with bad DIY work.

I always swap horror stories with the inspectors I use. I cut one j-box out with all wires intact for one guy to use in the JC code class he teaches as an extreme example of how not to do it. One j-box had about a dozen individual code violations in it...

 

[charlie b]

Re: Training The Public

What gives this store the authority to present such classes? The answer was provided in the statement of the question:

During the presentation, many questions of the "what if" nature came up from various people, and the only answer they got was, "just follow what we say, and don't do anything else."

If someone does get hurt, it will not be the fault of HD, because the homeowner obviously did not follow what HD said.

 

[Guest]

Re: Training The Public

Most AHJ's do require permits for anything beyond a simple R&R. Mine does and so do all the neighboring AHJ's.

The problem I see is how do they enforce it? If they don't know somebody is doing work how can they require a permit be pulled?

I have a couple of solutions:
1. Make permits easier to pull. Make over the counter permits easily available online. It can cost $100 in permit fees and $300 (or more) in time (including driving and parking) to pull a permit for a $500 job. If it's pulled online there should be a discount on the permit (as no staff time is involved) and it reduces the labor factor down to about five minutes. No customer wants to pay $400 to pull a permit for a $500 job. Nor does a contractor want to eat the $300 in time, nor put up with the two (more or less) inspections that are required. The numbers are worse if you're not within 30-minutes driving time to your AHJ and they don't allow permits by mail; FAX; phone; etc.

2. Maybe certain electrical parts should be registered. Kind of like a 1099 for electrical parts. If you buy a panel then it's registered with the AHJ and somewhere a permit has to cover it. In this day of computerized databases and persistent Internet connections it would not be that burdensome. But, the permit process has to be cost-effective (time and money). Like 1099's it would be an imperfect system. There would not be a permit tied to each and every panel on a one-to-one basis. If a company is doing a multi-panel job there might only be one permit-- but there would be a permit. If a DIY was doing one panel in their lifetime this registration would require that they pull at least one permit.

3. It needs to be easier for people to report work in their area. Each AHJ should have an anonymous way to report jobs in progress.

The overhead in administrating the jump in permits would be offset by the increased revenue to the AHJ.

If permits are easy and if parts are registered then permits would be pulled and jobs would be inspected. The end result would be safer jobs and less bootleg or DIY jobs.

I welcome all helpful comments about this. Please fill in any gaps.

In San Francisco you can pull an over the counter permit from home in less than five minutes and pay with your air miles credit card. My only objection is you have to pay $5 premium to pull permits online. Online should be like ATM at bank. ATM costs bank less than teller transaction. Online permit pulling should cost AHJ less than clerk pulling. I guess it's new enough that they have to recover their R&D costs for the new system. Over time I would hope they would give a discount to online permit pulling as it must save them money in admin costs.

 

[tony_psuee]

Re: Training The Public

A lot of mention about how to deal with the symptom, but what is the underlying issue that causes people to take on DIY projects of this nature? IMO MONEY. Hiring a professional is added cost and someone may think they can do a suitable job with the help of some free advise. Secondly, a permit means notification of improvement, which can mean the possibility of reassessment of property taxes. So, for what in the long run is saving a few dollars, someone is willing to put others at risk.

Change that culture, mentality, mind set, whatever you want to call it and the problem will fix itself. How do you convince someone that will spend easily spend $5-6k for a home theater system to add another 10% on that for a professional electrician to do any required upgrades? Maybe I'm out in left field on this one.

Wayne I do have a question on ATM usage, if it costs my bank less money for me to use my ATM card then why do a get a surcharge for excessive ATM usage each month? Shouldn't I be getting at least a thank you, or possibly a rebate since I am using more frequently than they expected, thus saving them more money?

Tony

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Training The Public

The DIY aspect is not really the issue of this thread. I personally like to do my own work on my own home. My concern is the nature of the classes and how they misrepresent the whole picture and aspect of such major installations.

I talked to a manager today at the store and shared with him some of my concerns. He said that what they were doing was nothing different than what can be seen on every home improvement TV show. He also said that the store assumes that those attending the classes have already made a decision to do the work themselves regardless of the fact that the store provides a class on the subject, and that this was one way to provided a visual of the materials and equipment.

His claim is that the class only lists and clarifies the manufactureres instructions provided with the materials and equipment. This is why many aspects and side issues are not covered specifically. He also stated that electrical department employees are trained to recommend licensed electricians to customers with complicated problems or extensive installations.

Just though I would pass that on.

 

[caosesvida]

Re: Training The Public

I guess its not illegal to give bad advice, only to take it.