Transformer Neutral and back feeding

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dear forum,

I have situation in Iraq where I'm inspecting a sub-station that has national grid with generator backup. At this time there is no grid power coming to the plant and there using the generators for prime power. We have 5 - 1.2 mega watt generators fed from a 3 pole breaker at the generator which feeds a DYN11 - 1250 kva 3 phase delta-Y transformer with 400 volts. It steps up to 11k volts going to a substation with generator breakers, group breaker, main breaker and downstream breakers that feed other transformers at various locations on base and steps back down to 400volts. My 1st question is should the contractor run a neutral from the generator to the transformer. At this time the contractor has the neutral bar at the generator breaker with a green ground going to a ground rod. He did not run a neutral wire to the transformer. He says it is not necessary. My issue is the contractor tells me that when 1 generator is running that the the substation breakers for the remaining 4 generators stay in the closed position which in turn back feeds to the transformers and to the generator. The Iraqi electrical Eng. tells me they needed to do that so they could read the digital readouts at the generators and to sync. them. But he tells me this system is not automated and they do this in manual. I will say we did have a hard time communicating with each other. His English was not good and I understand they brought him in because the org. contractor left with all the info and passwords for the sync. system. So he bypassed the system some how but i did not have time to trace and figure out what he had done. My question is does any of this sound correct as far as the back feeding to the generators are concerned. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
 
Most of the time you do not bring or connect a nuetral to a delta primary. There are various reasons none of which I am an expert on.
 
I agree your description is difficult to follow
We have 5 - 1.2 mega watt generators fed from a 3 pole breaker at the generator which feeds a DYN11 - 1250 kva 3 phase delta-Y transformer with 400 volts.
Is this 5 generators feeding a common 400V bus or 5 generators feeding 5 transformers which are then connected to a 11kV bus?

My issue is the contractor tells me that when 1 generator is running that the the substation breakers for the remaining 4 generators stay in the closed position which in turn back feeds to the transformers and to the generator.
Usually either the 400V generator breaker or the 11kV substation breaker would be opened

The Iraqi electrical Eng. tells me they needed to do that so they could read the digital readouts at the generators and to sync. them.
Each generator needs to see the bus voltage in order to be synchronized.
Typically this is done by bringing a 11kv bus voltage signal to each generator but it could come from the 400V side of a backfed transformer.
 
Jim the 5 generators are feeding 5 transformers and then going to the 11kv gear. Yes i agree it does seem the breakers shoul be open, but I see your meaning also that the generator needs to see the buss voltage. It does look like there there reading the voltage through back feeding the tranformer. It seems like they could have read the buss voltage through control wires going from the 11kv gear to the generator sync. panel. I still have the question, does the neutral wire at the generator need to be run to the transformer and if so why.
 
I'd guess your engineer knows what he is talking about. I'd also guess you don't have a one-line yet. Recomend get one or make one your self.

---We have 5 - 1.2 mega watt generators fed from a 3 pole breaker at the generator which feeds a DYN11 - 1250 kva 3 phase delta-Y transformer with 400 volts. It steps up to 11k volts going to a substation with generator breakers, group breaker, main breaker and downstream breakers that feed other transformers at various locations on base and steps back down to 400volts.
Sounds good - except I don't know what a group breaker is.

My 1st question is should the contractor run a neutral from the generator to the transformer. At this time the contractor has the neutral bar at the generator breaker with a green ground going to a ground rod. He did not run a neutral wire to the transformer. He says it is not necessary.
He's right. Gen neutral goes to the first disconnect and is bonded there. No neutral required from the disconnect to the xfm. EGC is required from the disconnect to the xfm.

My issue is the contractor tells me that when 1 generator is running that the the substation breakers for the remaining 4 generators stay in the closed position which in turn back feeds to the transformers and to the generator. The Iraqi electrical Eng. tells me they needed to do that so they could read the digital readouts at the generators and to sync. them. But he tells me this system is not automated and they do this in manual.
Okay they are syncing across the generator CB at the gen. That's good.

I will say we did have a hard time communicating with each other. His English was not good and I understand they brought him in because the org. contractor left with all the info and passwords for the sync. system. So he bypassed the system some how but i did not have time to trace and figure out what he had done.
So the guy walked in cold, put it together, bypassed the automated stuff where some ass stole the documentation and got it working. I'd say you should salute the guy.

If you don't have time to trace it out says there are no prints - or you wouldn't have to do that. Your whiz had to have traced it out. He has sketches. Ask nice, maybe he will show them to you. If not, get started making as-builts - if your whiz leaves your screwed.

My question is does any of this sound correct as far as the back feeding to the generators are concerned.
Well, you are not back feeding the gen. You're back feeding the generator transformer up to the generator disconnect. And yes that sounds fine.

cf
 
---. It does look like there there reading the voltage through back feeding the tranformer. It seems like they could have read the buss voltage through control wires going from the 11kv gear to the generator sync. panel. ---
You can sync the 400V gen to the 11kv bus, but there is a phase shift involved (the DY xfm). there is either phase shift transformers feeding the sync gear, or the sync gear can be programmed to account for the phase shift.

Probably can not easily manually sync across the gen 11kv CB. As I recall you said someone pulled an executable offense by running off with the documentation.

cf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top