Transformer taps

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Smash

Senior Member
Installed a 3phase 75KVA step up transformer 208/480 I had a long distance on the primary side which I oversized accordingly. The problem I’m finding is inconsistent primary voltage. First time I read voltage it was 208 across the board. Another day it was 210 across the board. The day I hooked up transformer (which tapped on #4 208V) the voltage was 210V which in turn was 487V on the secondary side of the transformer. Is this ok for 3phase 480V motors. Should I tap transformer on #3 which I believe was 210V maybe 212V don’t remember which. Anyway I Fired up the trans and the end of a 15hr day so I don’t even remember if it was 487V everywhere. I think at that point I was just happy to see the first two digits a 4 and a 8 but I’d like to know the effect this might have on the motor loads and what happens if I do tap at 210V then tomorrow voltage is at 208V now I’m below 480 which is worse and why is my voltage different. Some of it could be compensating for voltage drop since the transformer bank that feeds some of these buildings is quite a distance, however the closer buildings to the bank get the higher voltage I’m spitballing a guess here. My building is pretty close and my 208V reading a few months ago was before people starting leaving. Now there appears to be a lot of empty buildings maybe also contributing to the higher voltage. So which is worse a little higher or a little lower for 480V motor loads ?
 

Beaches EE

Senior Member
Location
NE Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer / Facilities Manager
Utilization voltage for 208 nominal is 181 - 220 volts so your readings look normal to me. On the service side, tolerance is +/- 5%. A 480 volt motor has a nameplate of 460 so lower is better on the HV side.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
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Electrical Contractor

paulengr

Senior Member
Agree.


Simplistic answer: Motors attempt to be constant-power loads, so they use less current, and thus run cooler, when the applied voltage is nearer the upper end of its rated voltage range.

Disagree. Simplistic and wrong answer. Above name plate flux increases as well and you are overfluxing the motor resulting in an increase in current that overcomes the integral fan cooling. Efficiency decreases. The only real gain from overvoltage is higher starting torque. Everything else is a negative.


UL and NEMA recommend +10/-15% worst case. CBEMA allows temporary sags/surges but generally recommends +/-5%. That’s what you need to shoot for both loaded and unloaded. Standard taps are at 2.5% and 5% which is in keeping with CBEMA limits. IEEE has tighter limits (Red Book +/-10%).

On long lines voltage variation is always a problem. I didn’t say drop because it’s really a problem both loaded and unloaded because the bus at the starter has a high impedance. What we call a soft bus. The extra impedance of the cable means when large loads are off (right after power up) voltage is often really high but when loaded it might even be too low. So you try to split the difference and keep it “between the ditches”. The obvious solution is a bigger transformer but that would be a better option if the 208 bus is soft. Think of going from a coffee cup to a 24 ounce “big gulp” cup. Sure you have a bigger drink but it’s still a coffee straw! You need a bigger straw on long lines. increased pressure (voltage) helps but some easy calculations would have told you this won’t work. Finally there is another option with motors. 10-15% of the motor power draw at full load is reactive power. That power is fixed so if you don’t run 100% loaded it just loads up the line with amps and causes voltage drop but you get nothing for it. So either put in the right size motor (smaller), add power factor correction capacitors, or both. On slow speed motors (6+ poles) not under full load current can decrease by 50% very easily. But if it’s a two pole fan running close to FLA don’t waste time on this. Again...depends on the application.

Next time do a little math of voltage drop and make sure you are going after the best solution. Wire is cheap. There is nothing wrong with running 4/0 cable with only 100 A load. For just one motor I would not have bothered with the transformer other than the fact that I despise 208 and 240 V power.

This is called voltage drop but I prefer to call it voltage variation because usually we are interested in both the high and low voltage condition. It gets worse with regenerative loads where the load becomes a source where true voltage variation takes place. Voltage drop implies all we are concerned with is how low it gets but that’s without considering startup conditions.

Let’s look at some cables aiming for roughly 100 A ampacity.

#2, $4.87/foot.

4/0, $10/foot

So an increase of about $5000 for 1000 feet but labor and all other costs are roughly the same, and that web site is much more expensive than your local electrical distributor. You would spend way more than that just on the motor and starter or labor building the raceway. By the time you added disconnects, fuses, and the transformer with installation, the extra large cable will look pretty cheap.

Utilities practice transformers all the time but their idea of distribution voltages is say 4160 or 13,500 V compared to 208 or 480
V. At those voltages your voltage drop issue vanishes for 75 kVA of load. The utility is dealing with miles of cable where transformers are a small part of the overall cost, never mind I-squared-R losses. I had a situation a few years ago where I looked at going from 22.9 kV to 35 kV over about 10 miles with several megawatts of power to decrease voltage variation. Even at 69 kV the cost justification just wasn’t there. So even though 22.9 kV is sort of an oddball nonstandard voltage raising it to another distribution voltage was pointless and going to transmission voltages (115 or 230 kV) blew the cost up. It ended up making more sense to move the utility’s substation (so essentially working at 230 kV) or running several conductors per phase. If a huge mine can’t make it work over miles of cable, the economics won’t work at smaller sizes either. There are other good reasons to do it, just not voltage drop. It helps reduce equipment and cable costs for higher power distribution. Above about 1000 kVA there are big advantages to 4160.

I can think of exactly one time changing voltages made tons of sense. This was a copper mine in Arizona. The time was the 1990s. Medium voltage VFDs were both very expensive and spectacularly unreliable but low voltage VFDs had just become really good due to the IGBT. They needed a 1600 HP VFD. It was cheaper and more reliable to step down from 4160 to 480, go through three parallel 500 HP VFDs, then step up to 4160 for the motor. The other option is a mechanical variable speed drive (scoop drive) but again reliability is not good on those.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Simplistic answer: Motors attempt to be constant-power loads, so they use less current, and thus run cooler, when the applied voltage is nearer the upper end of its rated voltage range.
Disagree. Simplistic and wrong answer. Above name plate flux increases as well and you are overfluxing the motor resulting in an increase in current that overcomes the integral fan cooling. Efficiency decreases. The only real gain from overvoltage is higher starting torque. Everything else is a negative.
Please read my response again. I said, " . . . nearer the upper end of its rated voltage range." and not, "Above name plate . . . "

Now, if my comment is still incorrect, please tell me why.
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
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Im on the lower is better side...
not below range lower, but on the lower side of nameplate tolerances.

A motor that is ran at nameplate voltage should run practically forever. When a motor voltage is at the extreme upper end of tolerances such as many of today’s motors are, the magnetic portions of the motor are driven into saturation.
Heat is the byproduct of the excessive current draw to further magnetize the iron beyond what is needed.

Some utilities will push the upper limits of service voltage. So a 460 motor on a 480 system would be great with some VD.
The problem is, the utility (or step up XFs) push the voltage to the extreme to account for voltage drop. Some places have VD, some don’t. When your installation receives voltage at or around 500-504 volts, the motor can’t really “use up” all that pressure and heats up, shortening the life of the motor.
The 10% range is for fluctuations throughout the day, not a range to stay within all the time.

FWIW, to the OP, I think you have the right tap. You lower it and tomorrow the system voltage could be too low, thus lowering your motor voltage even further. The range is there for just the fluctuations you are experiencing.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Please read my response again. I said, " . . . nearer the upper end of its rated voltage range." and not, "Above name plate . . . "

Now, if my comment is still incorrect, please tell me why.

Nope.

Right at name plate is something of a plateau so anywhere in there is good. Slightly above nameplate like 1-2% in an ideal world does not impact efficiency much at all and boosts torque. But with situations like long leads the goal should just be “keeping it within the ditches”. I spent over 20’years in the mining business so long cable issues are pretty familiar.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I still don't understand your correction to my assertion. Please explain what I'm missing.

If not near the top end of the nameplate voltage range, what is the ideal voltage for a motor?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Allow me to rephrase:

My assertion is that, for example, a 208-230v runs cooler when supplied with 230 or 240v than with 208v.

Where am I wrong?
 

Hv&Lv

Senior Member
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Occupation
Engineer/Technician
Allow me to rephrase:

My assertion is that, for example, a 208-230v runs cooler when supplied with 230 or 240v than with 208v.

Where am I wrong?
High voltages lead to saturation, which causes increase in currents, along with poor power factor.
In your example, an ideal voltage there to run cool and efficient would be 220V. I doubt you would see a marked decrease in life at 240V, but your just wasting energy.

Like I said in an earlier post, the range is only for daily variations.
say we put that motor in and the voltage is set at 240. The utility decides to up the regulators for an impending heat wave and set the service voltage at 252. It won’t stay that way long, but it will be done occasionally.
now your motor is running at 10% over rated voltage.

also the high voltage screws with ballasts, contactors, coils.. basically any other magnetic equipment in an installation.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
High voltages lead to saturation, which causes increase in currents, along with poor power factor.
In your example, an ideal voltage there to run cool and efficient would be 220V. I doubt you would see a marked decrease in life at 240V, but your just wasting energy.
Thank you. Would the 220v still be ideal with the motor well loaded?
 

Beaches EE

Senior Member
Location
NE Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer / Facilities Manager
To clarify my post #2, with a standard nameplate of 460 volts on a 480 volt system my "lower is better" means at or close to 460 volts rather than at or close to 480 volts at the motor terminals.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
I still don't understand your correction to my assertion. Please explain what I'm missing.

If not near the top end of the nameplate voltage range, what is the ideal voltage for a motor?

The ideal voltage is at name plate. Efficiency drops off in either direction, both above and below name plate. That’s not my chart. It is straight out of text books on motors.

You stated that it runs better at the top end of name plate as long as you don’t go over the name plate RANGE because it “cools better”. In other words if the motor is designed for +/-10%, you think the ideal voltage is 506 V, not 460 V. It is true that torque continues to increase and fan cooling does too. But eddy current heating also goes up and even if there is more available accelerating torque (peak torque) Since load torque isn’t (or shouldn’t) increase the motor flux is excessive. Basically in DC this would be excessive strong field. The magnetic field is too strong, actually increasing current instead of decreasing it like we expect. This cancels your cooling effect. Sure cooling is on an RPM squared term but locally near maximum the difference is marginal. The net result of running over name plate is a net decrease in efficiency at any point from 461 V to 506 V and is worse the farther you get from name plate. So running above name plate is detrimental. The only time it’s an advantage is for starting torque with large inertia loads.

Realistically is there any harm running above or below name plate but still within the NEMA spec range? Yes. Technically you need to derate the motor both above and below name plate. Realistically though if you sized everything that critical you are just asking for trouble. Any little hiccup like voltage variation ‘never mind voltage unbalance, and you’re burning up motors. So most of the time you won’t see this anyway.

So my point is first try to keep it in the ditches. Then if you can do that try to go for optimal voltage.

I have helped troubleshoot these “marginal” conditions in a couple cases. First is that compressor manufacturers often build their equipment so that it runs into the service factor when loaded. If it gets loaded to 100% duty cycle then if the voltage is off or especially if it’s not balanced, the motor quickly burns up. Second is in process plants operators often attempt to tweak the process to keep the motor “right at 100%”.invariably this usually means averaging about 105% of FLA with excursions of +/-5%. They quickly find that overloads are set just above this point and again...motors burn up under less than absolutely perfect conditions. That’s when derating for voltage unbalance and over/under voltage matter. And any issues with the coupling or the bearings hasten the rate that the motor fails. I’m not suggesting running with 50% horsepower margins but running with under 10% usually ends badly.
 
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