Transformer upgrade required

scrubbin

Member
Location
PA
Occupation
Maintenance Tech
Hello I'm new to solar and I installed a 14Kw ground mount system at my home and I contacted the local utility to connect to the grid. I was informed that due to the additional load generated by my system that I would need to pay for an upgraded transformer. Is this a normal cost for a solar install? Any idea on the cost for a new transformer?
Thanks
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Hello I'm new to solar and I installed a 14Kw ground mount system at my home and I contacted the local utility to connect to the grid. I was informed that due to the additional load generated by my system that I would need to pay for an upgraded transformer. Is this a normal cost for a solar install? Any idea on the cost for a new transformer?
Thanks
You will have to ask the utility what they charge. Generally there are tariffs for such things approved by whomever regulates the utility in your state.

It is normal for the end user to pay the cost of upgrades required when there is a change to the service.

I am kind of surprised you were allowed to install a system without the approval of the utility in the first place.

I have heard some pretty scary numbers for such upgrades. But some places it is not so bad. I have even heard of places that there is no charge at all for such upgrades as they are passed on to the other users.
 
That is strange an upgrade is required for a 14KW system.

Hard to say what the cost is, these things can vary widely. In NY per the tariff it's only $300.

I also wonder Was this system previously approved by the utility? It does happen sometimes that utilities approve but then require more things. It is certainly annoying and a poor way to do things.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
It's unusual but not unheard of in residential applications, and the cost can be high. These are things you workout when you put in an interconnection agreement before you build if there is any question.
 

scrubbin

Member
Location
PA
Occupation
Maintenance Tech
Yes I live in PA and the utility is First Energy Corporation (Penelec). I have been working with the utility before I started the installation but they just last week finally approved it. The installation isn't completed yet but will be finished this week. I have building/electrical permits pulled so when its finished it will be inspected and they just want to do a final inspection. The utility wants to have it inspected before they would do a meter swap and now transformer upgrade. But they just now told me I would need a transformer upgrade and it would be at my expense. So that is why I was asking about the transformer upgrade. I should have waited to get the utilities approval so it's on me that I have the additional transformer cost.
 
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pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Yes I live in PA and the utility is First Energy Corporation (Penelec). I have been working with the utility before I started the installation but they just last week finally approved it. The installation isn't completed yet but will be finished this week. I have building/electrical permits pulled so when its finished it will be inspected and they just want to do a final inspection. The utility wants to have it inspected before they would do a meter swap and now transformer upgrade. But they just now told me I would need a transformer upgrade and it would be at my expense. So that is why I was asking about the transformer upgrade. I should have waited to get the utilities approval so it's on me that I have the additional transformer cost.
It's tough. I have seen a number of projects over the years suffer from last minute utility interconnection problems because the contractor normally completes the installation before the utility has done its review due to timing issues. I remember one small commercial project in particular that the utility refused to interconnect to their downtown network distribution system after it was installed. I think after 2 years of pounding on the utility the contractor eventually got the utility give PTO.
You will need to get the cost from the utility for the upgrade. There's no way to estimate the cost if you are not working in the world of a utility since their cost structure is different from commercial work.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Hello I'm new to solar and I installed a 14Kw ground mount system at my home and I contacted the local utility to connect to the grid. I was informed that due to the additional load generated by my system that I would need to pay for an upgraded transformer.
What size is your service? How would the PV system add to the load? If your 14kW system is two SMA 7.0kW SB inverters the total output at 240VAC with the 1.25X factor would be 73A, which would all go back to the utility in a worst case situation. The transformer would only have to be 14kVA to handle it, and under any other conditions the PV system would reduce the load on the transformer. Does your POCO understand how solar works?
 
What size is your service? How would the PV system add to the load? If your 14kW system is two SMA 7.0kW SB inverters the total output at 240VAC with the 1.25X factor would be 73A, which would all go back to the utility in a worst case situation. The transformer would only have to be 14kVA to handle it, and under any other conditions the PV system would reduce the load on the transformer. Does your POCO understand how solar works?
My thoughts too. Round here, nearly all dwellings are supplied by a 25 KVA. 15 KVA is rare. 10 KVA is even more rare. What's even more rare than that, is the current that travels both ways at the same time! 😂
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
If your 14kW system is two SMA 7.0kW SB inverters the total output at 240VAC with the 1.25X factor would be 73A
What 1.25 factor? There's no 1.25 factor for current or for transformer sizing, the current is just 14000/240 = 58.3A.

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
What 1.25 factor? There's no 1.25 factor for current or for transformer sizing, the current is just 14000/240 = 58.3A.

Cheers, Wayne
For sizing inverter OCP, a 1.25X factor is applied to the maximum output current. The inverter will never produce that much current, true enough, but I was trying to look at it the way the POCO would see it as a worst case. Barring current flowing both ways simultaneously, of course. :D
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
For sizing inverter OCP, a 1.25X factor is applied to the maximum output current. The inverter will never produce that much current, true enough, but I was trying to look at it the way the POCO would see it as a worst case. Barring current flowing both ways simultaneously, of course. :D
I will just add that POCO reps who work with solar who also do not understand the fundamentals of how electricity works isn't unheard of.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I will just add that POCO reps who work with solar who also do not understand the fundamentals of how electricity works isn't unheard of.
It's a good bet that someone there does though. And they are probably the ones that put in the rules.

Are the PV systems generating pure sine waves or pulses of current? Maybe the old transformers don't like that.

It might also be that the new meter they need to put in can't communicate thru the old transformer.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
For sizing inverter OCP, a 1.25X factor is applied to the maximum output current.
Yes, but you didn't mention OCPD, so the 1.25x factor was out of place. I guess your point is that a confused POCO could be looking at OCPD size, rather than current.

Cheers, Wayne
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
It's a good bet that someone there does though. And they are probably the ones that put in the rules.
Maybe, but maybe not. I once (more than once, actually) encountered, for example, a solar inspector who was a master electrician who labored under the misconception that the current from a PV system adds to the load on a feeder, i.e., the current flows both in both directions simultaneously. There was a feeder with a 60A breaker on the supply end and a 60A inverter OCPD on the other end. His position was that the feeder needed to have a derated ampacity of 120A.
Are the PV systems generating pure sine waves or pulses of current? Maybe the old transformers don't like that.
Modern inverters produce clean sine wave output.
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Hello I'm new to solar and I installed a 14Kw ground mount system at my home and I contacted the local utility to connect to the grid. I was informed that due to the additional load generated by my system that I would need to pay for an upgraded transformer. Is this a normal cost for a solar install? Any idea on the cost for a new transformer?
Thanks

I feel for you. This is why you get utility approval before building the system when regulations allow them to do that. (The circumstances under which the utility customer has to pay for it vary from state to state.)

One thing to possibly look into is whether your PV system can limit export to the grid (Power Export Limiting, or PEL) and whether the utility will allow you to use such a feature to avoid the transformer upgrade. Depending on the numbers this may be a more cost effective solution.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
What size is your service? How would the PV system add to the load? If your 14kW system is two SMA 7.0kW SB inverters the total output at 240VAC with the 1.25X factor would be 73A, which would all go back to the utility in a worst case situation. The transformer would only have to be 14kVA to handle it, and under any other conditions the PV system would reduce the load on the transformer. Does your POCO understand how solar works?
'Add to the load' is probably imprecise language.

A ballpark guess is that a 14kW system produces around 21,000 kwh per year, which equates to around 2.4kw average usage if it's offsetting 100% of the home's energy consumption. It's a good bet that the home rarely if ever consumes anywhere near 14kW. But after the solar is installed (and not export limited) it will be regularly exporting likely 13kW or so to the grid continuously for hours on some days in spring and sunmer. So that does change the calculations for how a utility would size a transformer. That's not to mention impedance and voltage rise factors.
 
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