Travis Industries gas fireplace insert

[lljdavis]

My mom had a new Travis Industries gas fireplace insert installed. I extended the living room circuit to connect to the insert. The house was recently rewired and outfitted with AFCI/GFCI circuit breakers. When I connected to the insert, the breaker tripped. Initially, I thought there might be a problem with the insert. I inspected the field connection (made by the insert installer) and it looked correct. (hot, neutral, ground). When I checked for continuity, I found the ground and neutral had continuity. Which I believe caused the circuit breaker to trip. I spoke with the heating company and they asked me to email my concerns to them and they would contact the factory. Since then, I took it off of a AFCI/GFCI breaker and installed on an AFCI breaker. It works in this mode. I continue to ask the manufacture for some response in why the neutral and ground and connected together at the unit. But I haven't received a reply.

I haven't stayed current with electrical code so for those of you have knowledge in this area. Question: Are manufacturers allowed to connect the ground and neutral in their appliances? Seems like there are exceptions for specific applications. This installation is in Oregon.

Thanks for any insights.

 

[Little Bill]

@lljdavis
What is your occupation that you are retired from?

 

[lljdavis]

@lljdavis
What is your occupation that you are retired from?

Former IBEW 280. Mechanical engineering.

 

[petersonra]

Former IBEW 280. Mechanical engineering.

prediction - thread lock.

Did you measure the ground to neutral continuity with the insert hooked to the branch circuit or not?

I can't imagine a utilization device that would allow a connection between ground and neutral within the device. But it could be something else you are reading with your meter like some kind of emi filter.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...Question: Are manufacturers allowed to connect the ground and neutral in their appliances? Seems like there are exceptions for specific applications. This installation is in Oregon.

Thanks for any insights.

There are no general exceptions that permit the neutral and grounding conductors to be connected together. Ranges and dryers often have such a connection because of the old 3 wire circuits that were used for those appliances. The instructions for these appliances are required to state that if you have a 4 wire circuit, that the connection between the two must be removed.

 

[lljdavis]

There are no general exceptions that permit the neutral and grounding conductors to be connected together. Ranges and dryers often have such a connection because of the old 3 wire circuits that were used for those appliances. The instructions for these appliances are required to state that if you have a 4 wire circuit, that the connection between the two must be removed.

That's my understanding too. You can use the neutral as the ground for a range/dryer. But you don't run a ground and then bond them together.

 

[lljdavis]

prediction - thread lock.

Did you measure the ground to neutral continuity with the insert hooked to the branch circuit or not?

I can't imagine a utilization device that would allow a connection between ground and neutral within the device. But it could be something else you are reading with your meter like some kind of emi filter.

I completely disconnected the branch circuit so I was just measuring the appliance. I was wondering if they had a transformer in the unit that had an internal ground. But there was continuity between the neutral and ground. And the GFCI breaker didn't like it either.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I completely disconnected the branch circuit so I was just measuring the appliance. I was wondering if they had a transformer in the unit that had an internal ground. But there was continuity between the neutral and ground. And the GFCI breaker didn't like it either.

If you disconnected all 3 wires from the unit then there is an issue with the fireplace. Can you snoop around and see if it is intentional? I doubt it would be but I would have the installer take it out or get new parts

 

[lljdavis]

If you disconnected all 3 wires from the unit then there is an issue with the fireplace. Can you snoop around and see if it is intentional? I doubt it would be but I would have the installer take it out or get new parts

I don't think intentional. But I wanted the factory to know because maybe they weren't aware. It was a bit of an accidental discovery, because normally I'm not sure people are connecting fireplace inserts with GFCI protection. Seems like everything else is connected with GFCI though, which isn't a bad thing, because they do protect people.

I wasn't sure how to get the unit out. A bit of a pain. I suspect there may be a transformer or other device that has an internal ground? I don't know. I'm putting some pressure on the installer to resolve with a written letter from the manufacturer that says the unit meets code and it is not to be connected to a GFCI.

I reviewed their installation manual and it doesn't say anything about using or not using a GFCI.

 

[hbiss]

I'm putting some pressure on the installer to resolve with a written letter from the manufacturer that says the unit meets code and it is not to be connected to a GFCI.

I extended the living room circuit to connect to the insert.

If the insert has a neutral to ground fault, it will compromise the circuit it is connected to. Not a question of whether the manufacturer says it should or shouldn't be connected to a GFCI. There should be no connection between neutral and ground, PERIOD.

I would have the installer pull it out and investigate or provide a new one. It's defective.

-Hal