Troubleshooting - sparks from receptacle outlet AFCI

[ichimo23]

Scenario:
did a service call for tripping AFCI breaker at an apartment complex where the company i work for had done some remodel work adding receptacle outlets. Traced the problem to a severely nicked (sloppy work by installer) neutral wire at the termination screw of a receptacle. This receptacle was on a 'dead end' of the circuit, eg. no subsequent devices attached.

The problem:
The resident called the complex office to report the lack of lights in her apartment and the complex maintenance guy came to investigate. According to the resident and the maitenance guy, when he reset the breaker, a receptacle that had a TV/DVD player plugged into it 'shot sparks' as the breaker re-tripped. The TV/DVD were NOT plugged into the receptacle with the bad neutral wire. After i completed the repair on the receptacle with the bad neutral wire and reset the breaker, the TV/DVD did not work. I tested the receptacle, and pulled it out to examine it, and found no problems.

The Question:
I'm sure the complex will send a bill for the fried TV/DVD to the company. Could the nicked neutral on a 'dead end' receptacle have caused the 'flash' at the receptacle the TV was plugged into? If not, what else could have caused the 'flash'? The AFCI breaker worked fine after the repair on the nicked neutral wire.

Any ideas/input much appreciated

 

[mdshunk]

I think there's some missing information here, but I'd say the answer is "no". Proving it, however, without having looked the stuff over myself, will be impossible. This is probably one of those instances where you let the claim be paid and move on. It's what you call an 'ethical dilemma', so you err on the side of the customer unless you have some smoking gun to prove your case otherwise.

 

[ichimo23]

thanks Marc,
I already resigned myself to the fact that the boss will be paying for the TV/DVD (at least they were off-brand cheapos). He deserves the bill for having virtually untrained and unsupervised 'helpers' do his work at this job. This is the third trouble call i have done at this complex, all for similar issues (floating neutrals not 'nutted down' properly, wires nicked by paddle bits etc) . I wasnt able to investigate beyond what i had in my original post. I was just curious if anyone had ideas as to what might have caused the 'flash' as this receptacle 'should' not have been affected by the nicked neutral of the dead-end recept. I did this call after working 9 hours in the Phoenix sun and apparently didnt smell too well when i arrived. After the circuit was working again the lady hurried me to the door...with a bottle of Febreeze in her hand! My wife was very amused, and sympathetic (to the lady in the apartment)

 

[electricalperson]

was it a short circuit or a neutral to ground afci problem? how could the latter fry a tv or dvd player? something is fishy. did someone use a megger without unplugging anything?

 

[mdshunk]

I did this call after working 9 hours in the Phoenix sun and apparently didnt smell too well when i arrived. After the circuit was working again the lady hurried me to the door...with a bottle of Febreeze in her hand!

That's hillarious! I'd have been so embarrassed. I carry extra shirts on the truck just for this reason, but some days I doubt it helps much.

 

[SiddMartin]

why wouldn't the TV and DVD been plugged in? After putting in a new recept, that would have been the first thing done ( after chking voltage ) , either by the installer or HO. I may have even set the time on the item...may

 

[mdshunk]

If you made me guess, I might guess that a hard short on the end of a MWBC may have very briefly opened a marginal neutral connection someplace, sending a voltage approaching 240 to any connected equipment. Given what appears to be slapdash workmanship, this may be the case. Just a guess. Not enough information to say anything for sure.

 

[mdshunk]

I might also guess that the TV/DVD player was the original culprit, causing the AFCI to trip for legitimate reasons, and it finally gave up the ghost when the AFCI was reset that one final time. You'll never really know for sure.

 

[ichimo23]

I might also guess that the TV/DVD player was the original culprit, causing the AFCI to trip for legitimate reasons, and it finally gave up the ghost when the AFCI was reset that one final time. You'll never really know for sure.


Just curious
what makes you believe that could be the case? What issue with the TV/DVD could cause the AFCI to trip? You think it might be co-incidental that the shodding wire-skinning happened to be in the same apartment as some crappy, malfunctioning off-brand electronics? That would explain a few things now that i think about it. The resident claimed that she never reset the breaker herself, just called the rental office to send the maintenance guy over. The sparks flew when the maintenance gut flipped the breaker. That would make the complex liable for any damage to her electronics. Once my troubleshooting/repair was done, she immediately tried to turn the TV on and said, oh well, looks like they have to buy me a new TV....

 

[mdshunk]

The sparks flew when the maintenance gut flipped the breaker. That would make the complex liable for any damage to her electronics.

You betcha, but best of luck with that.

 

[DanZ]

Just out of curiosity, was there any burn marks on, or in the vicinity of the receptacle that shot sparks? Was there any sign of sparking or smoke? I've seen receptacles spark pretty good when a plug is only half way in. If you do end up buying her a new TV/DVD player, you may want to suggest a surge protector. :roll: Good luck!:grin:

 

[big john]

Not that it'll remove liability, unfortinately, but I would do a really close examination of every bit of equipment involved. I did maintenance work in an apartment complex for one horrifying year and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if someone just wanted you to pony up so they could have a new TV/DVD player.

That was also the job that taught me to question people's descriptions of problems: I once got a call for "Plug shooting fire". It turned out that the tenant unplugged a toaster under load and saw that little spark you sometimes get, and they called the office claiming the "plugs are shooting fire!" .

-John