Trunk Line Circuits

[mstrlucky74]

Anyone familiar with Class X trunk line circuits. I think it's a network riser. They never indicated the # or size of wires.

 

[gadfly56]

Anyone familiar with Class X trunk line circuits. I think it's a network riser. They never indicated the # or size of wires.

So, what bonehead put that 15 foot requirement AND 2-hour resistance on the same sheet? Is this a NYC project?

 

[mstrlucky74]

So, what bonehead put that 15 foot requirement AND 2-hour resistance on the same sheet? Is this a NYC project?

Yes

 

[gadfly56]

Yes

Are you merely bidding it or did your company design it?

The 15 foot separation is intended to allow the use of Class A or X circuits without 2-hour fire rated cable where Survivability Level 2 is required. Here are some pertinent snips:

760.53 Fire Alarm Circuit Integrity (CI) Cable. Cables suitable for use in fire alarm systems to
ensure survivability of critical circuits during a specified time under fire conditions shall be listed
as circuit integrity cable. Cables so identified shall have the classification “CI-NYC certified fire
alarm cable”

The immediate problem is nobody makes this. You might as well spec unicorn farts. Which is why the following is in Appendix Q, modifying NFPA 72:

24.3.5.4.1 Add the following exception: Exception -Pathway survivability Level 1 is permitted when pathway is designated as Class A or Class X with redundant pathways separated by a minimum of 15 feet.

And this is what it modifies:

24.3.5.3* The pathway survivability requirements in 24.3.5.4
through 24.3.5.12 shall apply to notification and communications
circuits and other circuits necessary to ensure the continued
operation of the emergency communications system.
24.3.5.4 In-building fire emergency voice/alarm communications
systems shall comply with 24.3.5.4.1 or 24.3.5.4.2.
24.3.5.4.1 For systems employing relocation or partial evacuation,
a Level 2 or Level 3 pathway survivability shall be
required.
24.3.5.4.2 For systems that do not employ relocation or partial
evacuation, a Level 0, Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 pathway
survivability shall be required.

 

[mstrlucky74]

Are you merely bidding it or did your company design it?

The 15 foot separation is intended to allow the use of Class A or X circuits without 2-hour fire rated cable where Survivability Level 2 is required. Here are some pertinent snips:

760.53 Fire Alarm Circuit Integrity (CI) Cable. Cables suitable for use in fire alarm systems to
ensure survivability of critical circuits during a specified time under fire conditions shall be listed
as circuit integrity cable. Cables so identified shall have the classification “CI-NYC certified fire
alarm cable”

The immediate problem is nobody makes this. You might as well spec unicorn farts. Which is why the following is in Appendix Q, modifying NFPA 72:

24.3.5.4.1 Add the following exception: Exception -Pathway survivability Level 1 is permitted when pathway is designated as Class A or Class X with redundant pathways separated by a minimum of 15 feet.

And this is what it modifies:

24.3.5.3* The pathway survivability requirements in 24.3.5.4
through 24.3.5.12 shall apply to notification and communications
circuits and other circuits necessary to ensure the continued
operation of the emergency communications system.
24.3.5.4 In-building fire emergency voice/alarm communications
systems shall comply with 24.3.5.4.1 or 24.3.5.4.2.
24.3.5.4.1 For systems employing relocation or partial evacuation,
a Level 2 or Level 3 pathway survivability shall be
required.
24.3.5.4.2 For systems that do not employ relocation or partial
evacuation, a Level 0, Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 pathway
survivability shall be required.

Much appreciated. Well they are showing the trunk line/network riser rising up in a shaft. How they hell could you have 15' separation between the sending and return?

I'm told by my FA vendor the network riser always has to be run on 2 hour rated cable.

 

[gadfly56]

Much appreciated. Well they are showing the trunk line/network riser rising up in a shaft. How they hell could you have 15' separation between the sending and return?

I'm told by my FA vendor the network riser always has to be run on 2 hour rated cable.

Ask them where they get their NYC approved CI or CIC. Request the manufacturer's catalog number. They will never get you a good answer.

 

[mstrlucky74]

Ask them where they get their NYC approved CI or CIC. Request the manufacturer's catalog number. They will never get you a good answer.

See attached.

 

[gadfly56]

See attached.

VITALink^® does not meet the requirements of Local Law 39.

From Local Law 39:

760.53 Fire Alarm Circuit Integrity (CI) Cable. Cables suitable for use in fire alarm systems to
ensure survivability of critical circuits during a specified time under fire conditions shall be listed
as circuit integrity cable. Cables so identified shall have the classification “CI-NYC certified fire
alarm cable”

From the approval:

54502 17A0167 Requesting approval for use in New York City of your Wire/Cable FHIT .40A Model/Series : VITALink(R) 2 Hour Fire Resistive CIC
Line; FHIT .40A Approved $200.00
Disclaimer: Advisory Board approval is limited to materials received and reviewed by the Board. Contact Con-Edison regarding Blue Book requirements.

The CIC is for EMT. You'll note from the FAQ that the product may NOT be installed in IMC or RMC. Fire alarm cable in most areas in NYC has to be in RMC.

The VITALink^® product is OK for other than fire alarm 2-hr fire resistive uses.

 

[mstrlucky74]

Gad really appreciate your feedback. I'm a little lost. The network riser/trunk line has to be 2 hour rated. And the conduit is run exposed so it has to be RGS. So how would you accomplish that if the vitalink wont suffice? Although I guess if the closet is two hour rated and dedicated to fire alarm we should be ok without 2 hour rated cable. Thanks.

 

[gadfly56]

Gad really appreciate your feedback. I'm a little lost. The network riser/trunk line has to be 2 hour rated. And the conduit is run exposed so it has to be RGS. So how would you accomplish that if the vitalink wont suffice? Although I guess if the closet is two hour rated and dedicated to fire alarm we should be ok without 2 hour rated cable. Thanks.

^^^^That right there would cover you.

 

[mstrlucky74]

^^^^That right there would cover you.

TY

 

[mstrlucky74]

So, what bonehead put that 15 foot requirement AND 2-hour resistance on the same sheet? Is this a NYC project?

Lol

 

[mstrlucky74]

Are you merely bidding it or did your company design it?

The 15 foot separation is intended to allow the use of Class A or X circuits without 2-hour fire rated cable where Survivability Level 2 is required. Here are some pertinent snips:

760.53 Fire Alarm Circuit Integrity (CI) Cable. Cables suitable for use in fire alarm systems to
ensure survivability of critical circuits during a specified time under fire conditions shall be listed
as circuit integrity cable. Cables so identified shall have the classification “CI-NYC certified fire
alarm cable”

The immediate problem is nobody makes this. You might as well spec unicorn farts. Which is why the following is in Appendix Q, modifying NFPA 72:

24.3.5.4.1 Add the following exception: Exception -Pathway survivability Level 1 is permitted when pathway is designated as Class A or Class X with redundant pathways separated by a minimum of 15 feet.

And this is what it modifies:

24.3.5.3* The pathway survivability requirements in 24.3.5.4
through 24.3.5.12 shall apply to notification and communications
circuits and other circuits necessary to ensure the continued
operation of the emergency communications system.
24.3.5.4 In-building fire emergency voice/alarm communications
systems shall comply with 24.3.5.4.1 or 24.3.5.4.2.
24.3.5.4.1 For systems employing relocation or partial evacuation,
a Level 2 or Level 3 pathway survivability shall be
required.
24.3.5.4.2 For systems that do not employ relocation or partial
evacuation, a Level 0, Level 1, Level 2, or Level 3 pathway
survivability shall be required.

But there is no way to get 15' separation with these conduits running in a small electric closet? The return would have to be run outside somewhere.

Whats surv. Level 1&2.

 

[mstrlucky74]

VITALink^® does not meet the requirements of Local Law 39.

From Local Law 39:

760.53 Fire Alarm Circuit Integrity (CI) Cable. Cables suitable for use in fire alarm systems to
ensure survivability of critical circuits during a specified time under fire conditions shall be listed
as circuit integrity cable. Cables so identified shall have the classification “CI-NYC certified fire
alarm cable”

From the approval:

54502 17A0167 Requesting approval for use in New York City of your Wire/Cable FHIT .40A Model/Series : VITALink(R) 2 Hour Fire Resistive CIC
Line; FHIT .40A Approved $200.00
Disclaimer: Advisory Board approval is limited to materials received and reviewed by the Board. Contact Con-Edison regarding Blue Book requirements.

The CIC is for EMT. You'll note from the FAQ that the product may NOT be installed in IMC or RMC. Fire alarm cable in most areas in NYC has to be in RMC.

The VITALink^® product is OK for other than fire alarm 2-hr fire resistive uses.

I see the note about not being able to install in rgs..very odd. So back to my question. If the 15' separation achieves levels 2 survivability what happens when your 2 hour rated closet is 10' wide. I'm missing something.

 

[gadfly56]

I see the note about not being able to install in rgs..very odd. So back to my question. If the 15' separation achieves levels 2 survivability what happens when your 2 hour rated closet is 10' wide. I'm missing something.

This is something you'll have to negotiate with the AHJ/FDNY. If both runs are in the closet they would ordinarily need only 12 inch spacing to meet Class A. If the entire shaft is 2-hr rated, that should cover the survivability requirement they have. It's pretty much the only play you have to make.