TVSS Kwh Reduction - Power Gleaner

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johnklesney

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I have several customers including the State of Michigan at Governor Granholms office that have documented savings of Kwh using Power Gleaners TVSS technology. (www.powergleaner.com) I have read several of your forums on TVSS and everything I read is to stay away from companies that make this claim. However, the Power Gleaner customers have all had 10% guaranteed savings in writing and have stated that they actually realized 15 - 30% reduction in Kwh's after discounting for all variables. Is the Power Gleaner technology different than the others you state can not produce savings, only protection? Power Gleaner has no filings or claims or suits against them and have very large customers on board that verify savings. Thank you for any response or help you can provide.
 
Lies, Lies, and more Lies. If you know AMYTHING about electricity, you will know that a magic black box can NOT reduce energy usage. Stop frauding your customers!!!
 
bphgravity said:
Lies, Lies, and more Lies. If you know ANYTHING about electricity, you will know that a magic black box can NOT reduce energy usage. Stop frauding your customers!!!
Click to expand...

Stop holding back and say whats on your mind :)

John.


Can you tell us how it works?

Where does the power come from that it saves?

Does it make items down line from it more efficient?

If I connect a 3000 watt resistance heater to it will it now draw less than 3000 watts and still have the same heat output?

Right now I am with Byran on this one.
 
Figures, I tried to download the one White paper that mentions power savings and it is only available to dealers of the widget.
 
bphgravity said:
Lies, Lies, and more Lies. If you know AMYTHING about electricity, you will know that a magic black box can NOT reduce energy usage. Stop frauding your customers!!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Bryan. These are not my Power Gleaner customers. They are customers that realize savings from deregulation programs sanctioned by the MPSC (Michigan Public Service Commission) for commodity pricing for gas and electric. Power Gleaner has put on these customers and per the customers testimonial letters they have realized Kwh reduction. My understanding is that the equipment down the line is not subject to surges and therefore does not overheat. Is there any logic that if that is the case, then there will be less Kwh's used? I can see where the equipment would last longer and there would be savings from that. I can email Power Gleaner spec sheets if that is helpful? Thanks again for any input. John
 
Power Gleaner TVSS

Power Gleaner TVSS

iwire said:
Figures, I tried to download the one White paper that mentions power savings and it is only available to dealers of the widget.
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Bpb. I can email you the white paper if that is helpful? John
 
What you talkin bout, Willis?!

What you talkin bout, Willis?!

iwire said:
Can you tell us how it works?

Where does the power come from that it saves?

Does it make items down line from it more efficient?

If I connect a 3000 watt resistance heater to it will it now draw less than 3000 watts and still have the same heat output?
Click to expand...

John-

These are some pretty good questions that need an answer, not sales mumbo-jumbo.

If you could fix the link to your white paper with your reply post then we could all have a look at it. I've never heard of a power gleaner before.
 
Power Gleaner TVSS

Power Gleaner TVSS

DGrant, Thx. for any help you can provide. I just emailed Bob at (email address removed by Moderator) with the authored white paper titled "Energy Savings Effects on High Efficiency Poly-Phase Motors" for Power Gleaner. 2/05. I am hoping Bob can shed some light from this. I will also email it to your address right now. Thanks again for any input after reviewing the
white paper. John
 
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What I find interesting from their site is that they describe their components in terms that make it clear that they are Transient Voltage Surge Suppression (TVSS) devices. Fair enough. Then, on a couple of the web pages, they talk about 10% to 20% energy savings. There is even a hint of a guarantee of such savings. But what there is not is a description of how, or by whom, or when, or how often the energy savings (or lack thereof) are to be measured. I would strongly suspect that the deception, if there is any deception, lies in that concept.

Let me offer one possibility. I'm not calling it a fact, nor even a suspicion, but offer it only for the sake of discussion.

Suppose, just suppose, their widget creates a significant internal voltage drop. On the whole, the system will wind up drawing less energy. But as Bob alluded to, it will, at the same time, operate less efficiently. If you drop the voltage to Bob's 3000 watt resistive heater by 5 percent, it will draw about 10 percent less energy (in units of KWH) from the utility. That would be a measurable savings. But it will also put out 10 percent less heat. In addition, it will cause all motors to operate at a higher current and a higher temperature. The web site states that the protected equipment will not suffer overheating from voltage transients. But it does not also state that the protected equipment will not suffer overheating from other causes.
 
At first, I thought their approach was to put the TVSS on the line side of the meter instead of the load. That way, any surges that it shunts you wouldn't have to pay for. But it appears that this goes in the service entrance like any other TVSS. I don't believe code permits a TVSS on the line side of a service anyway.
 
johnklesney said:
Bpb. I can email you the white paper if that is helpful? John
Click to expand...
In a Private Message, I asked John to email me a copy of this "white paper." He sent me a copy. I did not know when I asked for a copy that the document was developed solely for use by the client of its author, nor that it was stamped as being property of Power Gleaner. However, now that I know these things, I must conclude that I cannot share a copy with members of this Forum. That would require permission of the document's owner.

I do not plan to retain a copy of the document. I do not plan to issue any formal report of my review of the document. However, as I came upon the document without myself having violated any laws or rules of ethics (John, this is not a criticism of you, nor a suggestion that you violated any laws or rules, but rather is just an assertion that I did not), I believe I am free to offer a few general observations on its contents.

First, the document was written by a person who is not a licensed Professional Engineer (or at least, not in the state listed in the author's address).

Secondly, the document does not confirm or attest that installation of the product will result in the cost savings to which the Power Gleaner web site alludes. Rather, it essentially states that the company's guarantee of energy savings needs to be evaluated by prospective purchasers from a cost/benefit perspective.

Third, it describes the influence on motor operating temperature from two causes: imbalanced voltage and harmonics. It makes the not-at-all-surprising statement that elimination of these influences can reduce the energy consumed by a motor. However, it does not assert that industrial facilities commonly have these problems and that they could achieve significant cost savings from eliminating these problems. Also, it does not assert that the Power Gleaner device is capable of eliminating these problems. It refers to attachments that were not included with the copy I received, attachments that are described as the results of tests that included have "with" and "without" data that might demonstrate the effect of the Power Gleaner devices. Then again, the tests might not have demonstrated anything of the sort. Without seeing the data, and without reviewing the method of data collection, and without evaluating the voltage and current parameters used to perform the tests, I can say nothing about the test results.

Finally, it does not contain any information or any statements to the effect that the author had evaluated the Power Gleaner devices in comparison to other products that are advertised to perform similar functions.
 
I have been sent one short paper that was supposedly issued by the company, and that discusses possible energy savings from use of this device. I read it, and laughed. Then I wondered whether I should be sad instead of happy, on behalf of those who might be misled by its statements.

Let me say that nothing I read in that paper appeared to me to be an untrue statement. Also, although I did not check the math, its statements about possibly being able to save 10% of energy costs did not seem out of line with their assumed conditions.

It was the assumed conditions that caused me to laugh. But perhaps I was too hasty. Let me ask the membership, particularly any of you who are familiar with power quality issues in typical industrial facilities, whether the following "assumptions" are indeed typical of what you see on a normal basis:
1. Voltage spikes occurring 40 times every second (144,000 times per hour).
2. The peak value of the voltage spikes being 20 times higher than the system's nominal RMS voltage.

Sound reasonable to you? Not to me, but I work with ships and not factories these days.

One final comment: The device under discussion might well be capable of preventing such spikes from passing through the electrical system. But so too would any other TVSS system. I cannot speak to any of their claims of being different from the others in a significant way. Electronics is not my thing.
 
This has been a facinating discussion................

Use this super duper spark plug and get 30% more power...

Buy our "green box" and save 30% on your elect. bill.......

Add this majic formula to your gas tank and get 20% better mileage....

Take this pill and the pounds will melt away.............

If it sounds too good to be true................

As P.T. Barnam once said..........

Bob on the left coast
 
And the ever-present Enzyte Bob:


Why is this man smiling?

smilingbob.jpg


Because he got paid to.
 
If one claims their product is better than every other manufacturers, no white paper, or factory tests, or customer testimonial, or warranty or guarantee will convince me.

There is only one thing I would consider good evidence - confirmation by an independent nationally recognized testing laboratory.
 
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