twin breakers, inspector has never seen any panel label accepting them

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Stevenfyeager

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United States, Indiana
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electrical contractor
Inspector today said he has never seen a service panel label that accepts twin (or tandem) breakers. I asked him about Siemens 3040 model panels. He reiterated, 'I have never seen a panel label list twin breakers'. Hm, how else can we get those 40 circuits out of a 30 space panel, I asked. He still said he has never seen a label accept twins. I looked in a 12 space 24 circuit Siemens panel this evening in the store, it lists QT (which is the label on a twin breaker)
....Am I reading it wrong? However, the QT letters did not show up in every grouping on the label, only some sections.... ??
 
Stevenfyeager said:
However, the QT letters did not show up in every grouping on the label, only some sections.... ??
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They only need to appear once.

infinity said:
What kind of inspector has never seen a panel that accepts twin breakers?
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He said he hadn't seen one labeled to accept them. To me, the diagram that shows the A/B spaces that they fit in qualifies as the labeling.
 
junkhound said:
Had a 'home inspector' on one house write up 'cannot have more than one conductor on CB terminal' when the breakers were all QO.
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If they were over 30 amp breakers he would be correct;)

IOW don't put 4 #12's into a 50 amp breaker because you ran out of usable spaces:cool:
 
Stevenfyeager said:
Inspector today said he has never seen a service panel label that accepts twin (or tandem) breakers. I asked him about Siemens 3040 model panels. He reiterated, 'I have never seen a panel label list twin breakers'. Hm, how else can we get those 40 circuits out of a 30 space panel, I asked. He still said he has never seen a label accept twins. I looked in a 12 space 24 circuit Siemens panel this evening in the store, it lists QT (which is the label on a twin breaker)
....Am I reading it wrong? However, the QT letters did not show up in every grouping on the label, only some sections.... ??
Click to expand...

The 3040 models (in most any brand) typically accepts the twins or tandems on the five spots furthest fro the main. Those spaces will have different bus or foot design that is intended to accept "CTL" rated twins/tandems, the remaining spaces don't have this different design and prevents "CTL" rated breakers from plugging onto them.

Since NEC did away with the 42 circuit limit (not too long ago) you are starting to see a lot of loadcenters that accept twins/tandems in all positions - even 42/84 circuit rated panels are fairly common now. Good luck using 84 circuits out of them in a dwelling though with the AFCI requirements - they don't make tandem AFCI's.

Add: I haven't seen one yet that is designed to accept twins/tandems, that doesn't indicate on the label where they will fit, when I looked for it anyway, I usually just look for rejection features to tell where they fit or don't fit.
 
Sounds to me as if the inspector is unaware of how it is designated on the panel labels. He might be looking for specific words to the effect of “Accepts twin breakers” but that’s just not how it’s done. They simply show what class of breakers are listed with the panel, then the circuit diagram indicates where there are any restrictions AGAINST tandem breakers, if any.
 
Jraef said:
Sounds to me as if the inspector is unaware of how it is designated on the panel labels. He might be looking for specific words to the effect of “Accepts twin breakers” but that’s just not how it’s done. They simply show what class of breakers are listed with the panel, then the circuit diagram indicates where there are any restrictions AGAINST tandem breakers, if any.
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I was going to mention something to that effect - he is looking for something specific, wearing blinders and can't see what says basically the same thing he is looking for.

Some manufacturers use the term "twin", some use the term "tandem". GE doesn't use either term, but rather has a "1/2 size" style breaker - but still only works in slots designed to accept them.
 
Stevenfyeager said:
Inspector today said he has never seen a service panel label that accepts twin (or tandem) breakers. I asked him about Siemens 3040 model panels. He reiterated, 'I have never seen a panel label list twin breakers'. Hm, how else can we get those 40 circuits out of a 30 space panel, I asked. He still said he has never seen a label accept twins. I looked in a 12 space 24 circuit Siemens panel this evening in the store, it lists QT (which is the label on a twin breaker)
....Am I reading it wrong? However, the QT letters did not show up in every grouping on the label, only some sections.... ??
Click to expand...

Although I know it doesn't always work this way, but it isn't our job to educate inspectors and it isn't the inspector's job to reject everything he hasn't seen before.
 
I think if I can learn something from an inspector that is great and if I can teach him/her something then that is great also. I don't look at it as being my job to teach n inspector or vice versa,however, it doesn't hurt to learn from each other.
 
Stevenfyeager said:
Inspector today said he has never seen a service panel label that accepts twin (or tandem) breakers. I asked him about Siemens 3040 model panels. He reiterated, 'I have never seen a panel label list twin breakers'. Hm, how else can we get those 40 circuits out of a 30 space panel, I asked. He still said he has never seen a label accept twins. I looked in a 12 space 24 circuit Siemens panel this evening in the store, it lists QT (which is the label on a twin breaker)
....Am I reading it wrong? However, the QT letters did not show up in every grouping on the label, only some sections.... ??
Click to expand...
Sq D QO and cutler hammer tan handle sell them for their panels, probably others like you said like siemans, sq D homeline. I don't think GE actually has one though. I have even seen Bulldog pushmatic tandem breakers. Another old inspector wives tale was "you can't have more then 4 tandems in a panel".
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I think if I can learn something from an inspector that is great and if I can teach him/her something then that is great also. I don't look at it as being my job to teach n inspector or vice versa,however, it doesn't hurt to learn from each other.
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I don't mind teaching either. But the student has to want to learn. And many 'round here don't.
 
GerryB said:
Sq D QO and cutler hammer tan handle sell them for their panels, probably others like you said like siemans, sq D homeline. I don't think GE actually has one though. I have even seen Bulldog pushmatic tandem breakers. Another old inspector wives tale was "you can't have more then 4 tandems in a panel".
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The C-H twins only properly fit a limited number of type CH panels, if they flop around on the mounting rail, they are not suitable to be used in that position, there is a huge installed base of C-H panels that were never intended to accept twin/tandem/piggyback/cheater/halfsize breakers.


Edit: Have a photo of a C-H interior showing where twins can be used but it's on Photobucket & missed the window where could save them & delete, now it's time to just delete the whole thing.
 
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