Two-Family Service Upgrade

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frank_n

frank_n

Senior Member
Location
Central NJ
I'm bidding on a Service Upgrade for a 2-family and I have never done one before. This is what I think needs to be done.

Each panel will be a 20 space 100 amp main breaker. I will install a 2 x 100 amp meter pan on the outside (both meters are currently in the basement). I will feed the Meter Pan with 2/0 THWN in 2"PVC. From the bottom of the pan I will feed each panel with #4 THWN in 1-1/4" PVC. I have to drill through a sidewalk to install the ground rods.

I will run #6 to the ground rods and to the water feed to one panel, then bond one panel to the other. Is this the correct way to do it?

Materials will cost $650, and I am figuring on 12 hours labor for me and a helper. My proposal is $1900 plus permit. The job is in Central NJ.

While I'm sure I'll get many opinions on my price (and I welcome them) I am also concerned about the bonded or the ground rods and water pipe to two panels. The current meters are rated at 240 volts and 15 amps. Will these meters fit into my new PSEG meter pan?

Frank
 
Have you done a load calc? My gut feeling is that your plan sounds reasonable and fairly typical to me. You should do a GEC tap, though, rather than to jump from one panel to the other. I would also caution you to keep your tenant panels proximal to each other, since they are MB panels. You'll need a #4 to the water pipe, since what you describe is really a 200 amp service, just metered twice.

Your "15 amp" :)grin: ) meters will fit fine. That's just the test current rating.

Drilling through the sidewalk is certainly something I've done many times to put in ground rods, but sometimes it's less effort to run the #6 through the basement and pound those rods in someplace in the dirt out back or where ever, if you can. Admittedly, sometimes you can't. If this happens to be a dirt floor basement, you can pound them in there if you want to.

Your price seems low to me, but it also seems you are unfamiliar with this type of work. That said, it seems like the "price to likely quality of results" ratio is probably in line. Education is expensive.
 
frank_n said:
Materials will cost $650, and I am figuring on 12 hours labor for me and a helper. My proposal is $1900 plus permit. The job is in Central NJ.
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Frank....stop.

Essentially that's a 200A service and then some.
For arguments sake...are you selling an amp at $9.50 per???
In 1993 I was getting $10 per
Just for perspective's sake...that was OVER a decade ago.
I'm doing these things at $2500 today....and that's a SFH 200A up, in SE...EMT is at $2800.

I'm not bashing you, but do you really only charge $40/hr ?

Here is my math:
1900 - 650=1250(labor)

2x8=16
2x4x1.5=15
31 manhours

1250/$40.32 per hour.

That's simply not enough in NJ to live on, vacation on, retire on, buy new tools, pay for advertising, pay cellphone and vehicle cost....I haven't even gotten into the cost to maintain your EC credentials, etc etc etc.


Have you run your costs through this:
Business Owners' Cost Calculator - MasterPlumbers.com
 
Materials will cost $650, and I am figuring on 12 hours labor for me and a helper. My proposal is $1900 plus permit. The job is in Central NJ.
Click to expand...

Materials = $1300
Labor = $2160
Total= $3460 MINIMUM


You are working WAY to cheap.
 
Way to cheap. Don't give away the materials.

Follow Marcs advice on the grounding. Don't waste your time drilling through the sidewalk.

Also Are 20 ckt panels enough?

I have gone into many multi families to do renovation jobs where they have a new (last 10 years) service. They are not happy when I tell them the panels are to small.
 
Frank...just do yourself a huge favor and stay home...it'll be a lot less work, and you'll do better financially...

you are in central NJ, PSE&G territory...sight unseen, that's a minimum $3000 job...I know one outfit in your immediate area that would be $4500-5000, without batting an eye...

just from your numbers...$650 material/0.70 =$928
labor = 12 x $150 ($75/hr/man - which is low still) = $1800

Total- $2728 minimum....

Do not do this service for less...if you choose to, good luck...but when guys talk about the problem with this industry, and lowballers, know that they will be talking about you...

now, go charge what you are worth...
 
This all seems like really good advice Frank. Years and years of others beating their heads against the wall in the school of hard knocks to eventually graduate and give you sound advice on a great forum. This advice is worth gold, IMHO. :smile:
 
220/221 said:
Materials = $1300
Labor = $2160
Total= $3460 MINIMUM
Click to expand...


That sounds about right. I would consider that price reasonable but not cheap.


There are those that don't agree with my idea of reasonable.:confused:

I wouldn't consider myself a crook if I charged $4000. There is always the chance that the job will not go as well as expected and there will be expected expenses. It Happens.
 
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Take there advice Frank!. I get $2200.00 for a regular 200 amp over head in NJ @ 7 Hrs max and thats with minimal PSEG involvement. $3200.00 ballpark for this
 
Oakey said:
Take there advice Frank!. I get $2200.00 for a regular 200 amp over head in NJ @ 7 Hrs max and thats with minimal PSEG involvement. $3200.00 ballpark for this
Click to expand...

I agree!

He at least break even with that price, maby.
 
arguing with the GC

arguing with the GC

got a call to do a bathroom rehab.

Tell the GC that once the walls are gutted, I have to bring the wiring up to code and need a 20 amp circuit for recep. alone.

Get a bunch of flack from him

told him doing it right or find someone else.

how many out there ever encountered GC like this.
 
vinnie,

2 things....those guys aren't gc's....mostly they are useless....

2nd - nj has an incredibly liberal rehab code....to the point that i don't believe you actually have to upgrade anything...
 
Vin...emahler is correct.
Under the rehab the line is not required.

If the GC gives you any back-talk, have him ask the HO (in your presence) or ask the HO themselves if they want it done.
 
I just got a couple material quotes for a 200A overhead service. The list is generous assuming I could do almost any service with these materials. I included 80' of 3/0, 50' of 3 ga, 20' of 2" IMC, 2 mogul LBs, 2 90 degree sweeps, a 40 space MB QO panel full of breakers, meter socket, ground rods, etc. The quotes came back $1200 and $1300, both without tax. These upgrades usually take 12-16 hours depending on conditions. If you include restocking and the dreaded paperwork and permit it's 2 days. Prevailing wage for a lowly electrician, not a foreman, with benefits is $63.73 per hour. An educated guess is that prevailing wage in NJ is higher than that. We're already around $2400 without overhead (accountant, lawyer, insurance, license, bond, vehicle, advertising, phone, memberships, tools).

Dave
 
Or you could move to Hawaii and do it for $1,000. The place is flooded with idiots who do 200 amp upgrades for a thousand bucks. I no longer seek out the upgrade market, if somebody really wants me to do one, it will be right around 16 bucks an amp. But nowadays I tell em that over the phone right upfront and save myself alot of driving time cause most customers have heard of somebody or other who got it done for a $1,000.
 
Tiger Electrical said:
I just got a couple material quotes for a 200A overhead service. The list is generous assuming I could do almost any service with these materials. I included 80' of 3/0, 50' of 3 ga, 20' of 2" IMC, 2 mogul LBs, 2 90 degree sweeps, a 40 space MB QO panel full of breakers, meter socket, ground rods, etc. The quotes came back $1200 and $1300, both without tax. These upgrades usually take 12-16 hours depending on conditions. If you include restocking and the dreaded paperwork and permit it's 2 days. Prevailing wage for a lowly electrician, not a foreman, with benefits is $63.73 per hour. An educated guess is that prevailing wage in NJ is higher than that. We're already around $2400 without overhead (accountant, lawyer, insurance, license, bond, vehicle, advertising, phone, memberships, tools).

Dave
Click to expand...

How many guys know they need a mogual fitting, and even realize, what they cost. I see so many guys working with 20 year old pricing, they just don't understand how to estimate a job to cover costs, and earn a small profit, there are many classes and books out there including some on this site that can help.
 
satcom said:
....there are many classes and books out there including some on this site that can help.
Click to expand...


Speaking of classes...for NJ's CEU classes - some offer ESTIMATING classes that count towards the 24 hours of "electives" .

I view myself as a fairly accurate estimator - however, as estimating IS the bread of butter of contracting, I am not opposed to learning more ways to improve my estimating skills.
 
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