Two Journeymen

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JoeNorm

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Has anyone ever run a small business with just two Journeyman as partners? No apprentices. If so, how'd it go?
 
I don't know the answer but in Massachusetts it is not allowed strictly forbidden even though a journeyman can pull a permit. In Connecticut a journeyman can't pull a permit so it's no go there as well
 
Eddie702 said:
I don't know the answer but in Massachusetts it is not allowed strictly forbidden even though a journeyman can pull a permit. In Connecticut a journeyman can't pull a permit so it's no go there as well
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similar here as well. Only contractor license holders can pull permits and perform "contracting activities"
 
I assume what you are really asking about is the partnership. 50-50 partnerships are very difficult. If there is a disagreement, (and there will be plenty of them), the partnership can blow up. A better way to do it is a majority partner and a minority partner. The partners can discuss and disagree, but ultimately the majority partner makes all the decisions. These partnerships are more stable because the minority partner understands that s/he can be outvoted on any decision and has accepted that. The major advantage to partnerships is partners are willing to wait to get paid if the company doesn't have the money to pay right now. Employees are not so willing.

As far as jobs are concerned, it should work out well. They can each go and do a job independently. And is a job requires two people, they can work together.
 
Coppersmith said:
I assume what you are really asking about is the partnership. 50-50 partnerships are very difficult. If there is a disagreement, (and there will be plenty of them), the partnership can blow up. A better way to do it is a majority partner and a minority partner. The partners can discuss and disagree, but ultimately the majority partner makes all the decisions. These partnerships are more stable because the minority partner understands that s/he can be outvoted on any decision and has accepted that. The major advantage to partnerships is partners are willing to wait to get paid if the company doesn't have the money to pay right now. Employees are not so willing.

As far as jobs are concerned, it should work out well. They can each go and do a job independently. And is a job requires two people, they can work together.
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Could get more difficult if one of the partners has contributed more than 50%, whether it be business assets or time on jobs but the other one thinks he needs 50% of profits.
 
Here is the rationale. Doing a lot of electrical work solo is Ok, but some is nearly impossible. So two workers seems key to getting work done. But the idea of being responsible for an apprentice sounds stressful, honestly.

Two Journeyman on the other hand can act independently and offer help on bigger jobs when needed. If someone wants to go on vacation for a month the other will be fine to keep working. Obviously structuring how the profits get distributed could get tricky, but not insurmountable.
 
Why don't you agree to "hire" each other when needed for an agreed payment/share method? I used to hire a piping team when I had large pipe jobs. Price included two men at least one had to be a journeyman and they brought their own equipment, lifts, drills, tuggers, whatever was needed. I also had a really really really old industrial electrician I hired when doing larger industrial jobs strictly for his coordination expertise. Even hired a cable guy one time to teach my guys how to properly terminate coax when that was huge in the early days of DirectTV and the like.
 
You can set up a partnership or LLC in any way you want. One person can have 51% control while someone else gets 75% of the profits because (s)he contributed more in startup capital.

personally, I would not be hiring an apprentice. hire a helper or a laborer. an apprentice is going to expect to become a JM in a few years, and you may not need another JM then.
 
I'm my corporation's president and the Master on record. I love wiring and hate contracting.

I'd like to partner with someone who loves contracting and hates wiring. Have Kleins, will travel.
 
JoeNorm said:
Obviously structuring how the profits get distributed could get tricky, but not insurmountable.
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Profit distribution is easy. It's all decided ahead of time in your partnership agreement. Here's one way for a 50-50 partnership:

If you are both journeymen and both doing the same kind of work and paperwork, that distribution can be 50-50 regardless of hours worked or proportional to hours worked. If you both have unique skills, then decide if hours spent doing those skills rate a premium over a regular hour. If so, profit distribution is:

[Your Hours] = [Your regular hours] + ([Your premium rate] x [Your special hours])
[His Hours] = [His regular hours] + ([His premium rate] x [His special hours])
[Total hours] = [Your Hours] + [His Hours]
[Your proportion of profits] = [Your hours]/[Total hours]
[His proportion of profits] = [His hours]/[Total hours]

The hard part of the partnership will be arguing over which jobs to take or reject, how much to charge, who to hire or fire, etc. The money part should be easy compared to all that.
 
petersonra said:
You can set up a partnership or LLC in any way you want. One person can have 51% control while someone else gets 75% of the profits because (s)he contributed more in startup capital.

personally, I would not be hiring an apprentice. hire a helper or a laborer. an apprentice is going to expect to become a JM in a few years, and you may not need another JM then.
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Might depend on rules where you are. Here if a helper is doing "electrical installation tasks" he must be a registered apprentice. Anyone can register though, so you can still hire a "helper" that doesn't plan to become a Jman but he will need to register, you may or may not offer to pay the registration fee that isn't all that much. Inspectors can make non registered workers or even non properly supervised apprentices leave the job site.
 
I've owned my business 50/50 with another journeyman for 15 years. We're setup as an S Corp. For better or worse we have very similar personalities and get along very well. We have settled into our separate roles based on our skilled, likes and dislikes. It was just the 2 of us for many years. We currently have 1 Journeyman and 1 trainee as employees. Honestly I can't imagine trying to wire a project of any significant size by myself, I don't know how some people do it.

Rob
 
marmathsen said:
Honestly I can't imagine trying to wire a project of any significant size by myself, I don't know how some people do it.

Rob
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I've had to do that and it's not easy, set for pull, go upstairs, start pulling, stuck, go back to basement unloop wire that fell off spool, go back upstairs, start pulling again get another 6 to 8 ft and stuck again, back to basement, repeat. By day 3 I am ready for day 5 to be done with. Especially when its essentially 3 stories plus ladders. It's hard to get a "helper" that can leave his phone alone long enough to keep the wire from tangling, I'll still get "stuck and still have to go down only to find his thumbs working harder than he is and oblivious to the wire tangle.
 
I have contemplated getting a partner many times, but all the negatives I have mentioned in this thread (and others) keep me from pursuing one. The major advantage to partnership is that your partner is just as concerned about the business as you are. S/he will work to make the business a success and is willing to accept less money if business is lean. Having a partner means you can go on vacation or be sick while the business continues running. And if your partner likes doing the aspects of the business (like paperwork) that you don't, you will be much happier. A partnership, however, is like a marriage. There is be disagreements, sometimes fights, and all the inherent stress. If you decide to dissolve the partnership, and you don't have a well-written partnership agreement, it will feel like a divorce.

On the other side of the argument, since I am a union contractor, I have access to a hiring hall full of trained electricians that I can hire and have working almost instantly. I can also lay them off instantly without repercussion. So I never have to do a job alone. One quick call gets me a helper, apprentice, journeyman, or foreman, for the next day (assuming there is a worker available who values working over unemployment pay). Non-union contractors may have access to similar hiring halls or temp agencies.

Employees are much easier to have. You can hire and fire them at will. You tell them what to do and they should go do it. (This works well for supervised employees on gangbox jobs, not nearly as well when you need service truck electricians who work independently.) You also don't have to share your profits with them. This is why owners get rich and employees get by. But employees don't really care about your business. They just want their steady paycheck and will quit if you can't provide it or they just might quit without notice for no reason at all right when you need them the most, something a partner generally won't do.
 
Fred B said:
It's hard to get a "helper" that can leave his phone alone long enough to keep the wire from tangling, I'll still get "stuck and still have to go down only to find his thumbs working harder than he is and oblivious to the wire tangle.
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Solution: Have helper do the pulling, using phones to communicate.
 
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