Two Main Panels

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hardworker

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400 amp main service panel has a 200 amp panel lugged on the line side of the main 400 amp breaker. There are 4 factory lugs at top of this main panel to connect the 2 hots from the line. The other 2 lugs are being used to lug over to the 200 amp panel. It now has 2 main panels. A 400 amp and a 200 amp. The 200amp panel is not technically a sub, because it comes from the line, not from the panel.

What does code say about this?

If the line pulls more than the 400amps will the meter outside disconnect the flow and protect the outside wiring?
 
The meter is not a overcurrent protective device :D
Barring other details, the installation is Code compliant provided a load calculation has been conducted to assure the total load does not exceed the line and load conductors to the meter and the meter base rating. It is, however, a cocked gun.
 
hardworker said:
400 amp main service panel has a 200 amp panel lugged on the line side of the main 400 amp breaker. There are 4 factory lugs at top of this main panel to connect the 2 hots from the line. The other 2 lugs are being used to lug over to the 200 amp panel. It now has 2 main panels. A 400 amp and a 200 amp. The 200amp panel is not technically a sub, because it comes from the line, not from the panel.

What does code say about this?

If the line pulls more than the 400amps will the meter outside disconnect the flow and protect the outside wiring?
Click to expand...

Have you done a load calc?
 
Are both panels next to each other? if not it is a grouping violation (230.72), also what is the rating of the meter? is it a 320/

Take a look at 230.90(A) Exception 3, as this pertains to this kind of set up.
 
hardworker said:
It now has 2 main panels. A 400 amp and a 200 amp. The 200amp panel is not technically a sub, because it comes from the line, not from the panel.

What does code say about this?

If the line pulls more than the 400amps will the meter outside disconnect the flow and protect the outside wiring?
Click to expand...

hurk27 said:
Take a look at 230.90(A) Exception 3, as this pertains to this kind of set up.
Click to expand...

I agree.
Exception No. 3: Two to six circuit breakers or sets of fuses
shall be permitted as the overcurrent device to provide the
overload protection. The sum of the ratings of the circuit
breakers or fuses shall be permitted to exceed the ampacity
of the service conductors, provided the calculated load
does not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.
Click to expand...

Here is a typical example of that exception at a dwelling unit.

DSService001.jpg


DSService002.jpg


DSService004.jpg


The riser is only rated around 200-250? amps but is 'protected' with 600 amps of breakers.
 
iwire said:
I agree.


Here is a typical example of that exception at a dwelling unit.

DSService001.jpg


DSService002.jpg


DSService004.jpg


The riser is only rated around 200-250? amps but is 'protected' with 600 amps of breakers.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob for the pics, I know you've posted the second one before but I've never seen the first or the third. I had assumed there would be a few main disconnects in the basement for the upper units but I see that's not the case.
 
I am wondering how you got away with all those panel without a disconnect outside. Local code allows that distance from the entrance point without a main disconnect ?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am wondering how you got away with all those panel without a disconnect outside. Local code allows that distance from the entrance point without a main disconnect ?
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This was side work by my buddy (permitted, inspected insured side work:cool:) and he could sell a Popsicle to an Eskmo. He ran everything by the inspector before proceeding. (He is the also the only person I know that will say to me exactly what he thinks, he never cuts me any slack, he keeps my head from getting too big)

Local rules usually allow about 5' inside, he is pushing it big time but with the inspector on board. The old service was awful and a lot of DIY wiring was in place. My buddy cleaned up a bunch of the bad wiring and relocated the service to a better spot.

The meters had been outside but due to the steep hill the home is on the meters where about 7' above the ground.

On the inside the olde service panels were above a line of washers and dryers.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am wondering how you got away with all those panel without a disconnect outside. Local code allows that distance from the entrance point without a main disconnect ?
Click to expand...

Oh wow I see that now, the se is strapped across the floor joists. I thought that corner where the panels are is the same corner you see in the outside picture but apparently it is not. Check out how the gec has been run, maybe one end comes from the water line, jumps the panels, and the other side goes to the ground rods?
We do agree that it is code legal to use the neutral bar to splice/extend a gec yes? I don't believe all members will agree with that, as shown in previous threads.
 
Bob I got to ask, I see a 5 gang mill bank meters that look like 100 amp rated meters, but the far right one that is nippled in looks like a 200 amp even though all the panels are the same?
Is this one of those "what was on the truck" jobs:D

Of course the amount of circuits that are running out of these panels seems very light even for an apartment?
 
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hurk27 said:
Bob I got to ask, I see a 5 gang mill bank meters that look like 100 amp rated meters, but the far right one that is nippled in looks like a 200 amp even though all the panels are the same?
Is this one of those "what was on the truck" jobs:D
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Nope, not a what is on the truck job, more of a how cheap can I do it kind of a job. :D

That nippled on meter is for the 'house panel' and the power company requires a lever bypass socket be used.


Of course the amount of circuits that are running out of these panels seems very light even for an apartment?
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Small units, all natural gas appliances and heating. No AC units.
 
I think it looks good.

We don't use SE for services over here and I'm not a fan of pvc masts, but it stills looks like a real clean job. :thumbsup:
 
Cow said:
I think it looks good.

We don't use SE for services over here and I'm not a fan of pvc masts, but it stills looks like a real clean job. :thumbsup:
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Our POCO wont allow SE, but I'm a big fan of PVC mast, we have a lot of old oak trees around here and when they fall I don't care what you use it's coming down, at least with PVC it will break the PVC clamps, and most of the time come out of the male adapter at the top of the meter, which many times the drop lands on the ground and the house still has power, I can put a new male adapter on the pipe and strap it back up, reconnect the drop and have their power back on in less then an hour.
 
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