Two services

[hhsting]

I have one transformer X which feeds 1000A service disconnect thru underground into electrical room

The transformer X is now in addition going to have another service conductor 400A underground but come up next to the electrical room door outside and thats where the 400A service disconnect is going to be.

The 1000A service feeds building and the 400A service would feed separate canopy gas (as in cooking gas) station 30 feet from the building but its 400A service disco would be right outside building electric room room door on outside wall of building. This is gas utility.

The existing configuration their was one service which fed all the building and the canopy station. The 1000A swbd fed the canopy station. Now they want to have separate service for the canopy gas station so they can meter bill it.


I said to engineer to group the 400A service disconnect with the 1000A service disco in one room so that based on 230.2 first paragraph this can be considered one service.


The engineer came back with saying their is no space inside the electrical room. An inspector from AHJ was sent out to site he came back saying their is no space for 400A main service disco in electrical room.

I said is their way you can relocate equipment to make space and engineer came back saying they dont want to relocate equipment because they have dig concrete floor and since this is gas utility no one knows whats down there and involve cost.

So here I am would anyone have any ideas here or would this fall under 230.2(E) plaques and in this case two utilities service must be provided?


I am the acting plans reviewer for the AHJ and in tough situation.

Thanks

 

[electrofelon]

I have one transformer X which feeds 1000A service disconnect thru underground into electrical room

The transformer X is now in addition going to have another service conductor 400A underground but come up next to the electrical room door outside and thats where the 400A service disconnect is going to be.

The 1000A service feeds building and the 400A service would feed separate canopy gas (as in cooking gas) station 30 feet from the building but its 400A service disco would be right outside building electric room room door on outside wall of building. This is gas utility.

The existing configuration their was one service which fed all the building and the canopy station. The 1000A swbd fed the canopy station. Now they want to have separate service for the canopy gas station so they can meter bill it.


I said to engineer to group the 400A service disconnect with the 1000A service disco in one room so that based on 230.2 first paragraph this can be considered one service.


The engineer came back with saying their is no space inside the electrical room. An inspector from AHJ was sent out to site he came back saying their is no space for 400A main service disco in electrical room.

I said is their way you can relocate equipment to make space and engineer came back saying they dont want to relocate equipment because they have dig concrete floor and since this is gas utility no one knows whats down there and involve cost.

So here I am would anyone have any ideas here or would this fall under 230.2(E) plaques and in this case two utilities service must be provided?


I am the acting plans reviewer for the AHJ and in tough situation.

Thanks

IMO the 400 amp service is not supplying the building, so there is no restriction against having it there mounted on the outside of that building. It does not have to be grouped with the first service. It's just two separate services, one just happens to be mounted on the outside of a building it is not supplying.

 

[hhsting]

IMO the 400 amp service is not supplying the building, so there is no restriction against having it there mounted on the outside of that building. It does not have to be grouped with the first service. It's just two separate services, one just happens to be mounted on the outside of a building it is not supplying.

I didnt expect that response. The problem then becomes the load side of the 400A main service disconnect feeds transformer which feeds Panelboard A. The panelboard A feeds the canopy station motors thru feeders multiple 30 feet away at the starion. The panelboard A is also feeding step up transformer which feeds Panel B. The panel B has feeders which go underground to canopy station power controls. Both panelboards, both transformers are right outside building wall adjacent to the 400A main service disconnect next to electrical room door



If you consider canopy as separate structure then NEC 2017 section 225 would come into play. You cannot have multiple outside feeders from Panel A, Panel B feeding the canopy 30 feet away. They dont want to move the panelboards to the canopy since it is hazardous classified division area. They want to keep it distance

The whole structure is like gas station for cars but its not that. You have building and separate canopy with station. Panelboard at the building is feeding the dispenser in gas station, motors etc but this is gas as in cooking gas, gas as in deliver to your home thru gas utility

So then one has to consider canopy station and the building as one whole structure. Do you see?

 

[electrofelon]

Are you sure these are feeders and not branch circuits going out to the canopy? If they are feeders you will need disconnects there anyway, why not just put a panel board out there? 225-30 (E) could be utilized.

 

[hhsting]

Are you sure these are feeders and not branch circuits going out to the canopy? If they are feeders you will need disconnects there anyway, why not just put a panel board out there? 225-30 (E) could be utilized.

Sorry branch circuits for motors ofcourse but the ones to controls are 120V so i think feeders.

They dont want panelboard there cause its all hazardous classified areas NEC 2017 section 500s. They want to keep it distance.

Like i said in previous post its like car gas station but its not. U know car gas station has convince store building and separate outside canopy with dispensers. Have u ever seen panelboard at the car gas station canopy dispensers or pillar? They always have panelboard in store building and feed from or at the convince store building to canopy dispensers. However this is gas utility building and separate 30 feet away gas canopy and station. Under canopy has dispensers but these are gas as in cooking or one deliver to your home. The trucks come by their and fill tank of gas to deliver to home etc to deliver elsewhere.

225.30(E) documented switching procedure you say? Is it applicable to gas utility? Who would create such a thing and who would approve? How does one know? Would note on plans be ok?

 

[electrofelon]

NEC does not define safe switching procedure. My understanding is you are the ahj so it is your decision to come up with and ask them for documentation, instructions, plaques, etc....
your call, you make it. If you can't handle that responsibility, maybe you should resign as that is part of your job description.

 

[hhsting]

NEC does not define safe switching procedure. My understanding is you are the ahj so it is your decision to come up with and ask them for documentation, instructions, plaques, etc....
your call, you make it. If you can't handle that responsibility, maybe you should resign as that is part of your job description.

But i have never encountered such procedure and we r missing chief. I get ur point ultimately i do anyways but was asking for opinions see if I am missing anything in code

I do wonder how car gas station are exempt from multiple branch circuits feeding the dispensers. I think canopy and building is considered on structure.


Thanks for pointing out 225.30(E) i may have to look into it more to see if its applicable

 

[electrofelon]

After this thread:

Documented switching procedure

Has anyone ever heard of documented switching procedure NEC 2014 Section 225.30(E) for apartments classification R2 as exception to multiple feeders?

forums.mikeholt.com

Maybe you could have come up with what you find to be acceptable switching procedures?

Look, I get it. There are lots of vague things in the code we have to deal with. I deal with this crap all the time, vague clients who say "just wire it" with hardly any information, they want generators with hardly information about what they want on it, vague things in the code and I have to decide which way to do it and if the inspector will feel differently than I....... You seem to have trouble making decisions. Perhaps it would be better if you had a position where you had someone above you you could defer these decisions to? Just a thought. Make a decision and move on.

 

[hhsting]

After this thread:

Documented switching procedure

Has anyone ever heard of documented switching procedure NEC 2014 Section 225.30(E) for apartments classification R2 as exception to multiple feeders?

forums.mikeholt.com

Maybe you could have come up with what you find to be acceptable switching procedures?

Look, I get it. There are lots of vague things in the code we have to deal with. I deal with this crap all the time, vague clients who say "just wire it" with hardly any information, they want generators with hardly information about what they want on it, vague things in the code and I have to decide which way to do it and if the inspector will feel differently than I....... You seem to have trouble making decisions. Perhaps it would be better if you had a position where you had someone above you you could defer these decisions to? Just a thought. Make a decision and move on.

Okay. Regarding that old thread link you posted about documented switching turns out when I asked for documented switching procedure to the engineer he is like what is that and I dont have it. So what happened was he provided single feeder. Ha! Didnt see any procedure even the electrical designer didnt know. Put some statement like documented procedure and multiple feeders would be accepted. Ha!

Anyways this is different project not apartment complex different engineer altogether. Yea your right i am currently below chief or hired as below someone who makes that decision but the chief position has been vacant for three years! They have hard time finding someone. So anyways i dont have much choice. I yell and upper management is like do best u can. Seriously. When I was hired though chief was their but now retired.

 

[electrofelon]

Okay. Regarding that old thread link you posted about documented switching turns out when I asked for documented switching procedure to the engineer he is like what is that and I dont have it. So what happened was he provided single feeder. Ha! Didnt see any procedure even the electrical designer didnt know. Put some statement like documented procedure and multiple feeders would be accepted. Ha!

Anyways this is different project not apartment complex different engineer altogether. Yea your right i am currently below chief or hired as below someone who makes that decision but the chief position has been vacant for three years! They have hard time finding someone. So anyways i dont have much choice. I yell and upper management is like do best u can. Seriously. When I was hired though chief was their but now retired.

Seems like this is a super common install for gas stations. Perhaps someone who has done that type of work can chime in and explain how they deal with the multiple supply issue. Perhaps another option is to utilize the new definition of "structure" and call everything "equipment" so there is no structure and thus no restriction on multiple supplies.

 

[hhsting]

Seems like this is a super common install for gas stations. Perhaps someone who has done that type of work can chime in and explain how they deal with the multiple supply issue. Perhaps another option is to utilize the new definition of "structure" and call everything "equipment" so there is no structure and thus no restriction on multiple supplies.

But if everything and all is considered one structure then post #1 question would arise

However if separate structure then question if multiple feeders or branch circuits arises

 

[electrofelon]

But if everything and all is considered one structure then post #1 question would arise

However if separate structure then question if multiple feeders or branch circuits arises

I dont see how the canopy would be considered the same structure as the building. You could consider the equipment under the canopy just "equipment" and no structure. These are decisions you will have to make.

 

[hhsting]

I dont see how the canopy would be considered the same structure as the building. You could consider the equipment under the canopy just "equipment" and no structure. These are decisions you will have to make.

There are also lights on canopy. Also there are multiple branch circuits. Branch circuit supply load. One cannot have multiple branch circuit either

However by your account the 400A service is supplying equipments not separate structure? How could one have this service?

 

[Fred B]

Here is a simple solution. Don't mount the 400A disconnect on the building, put a pedestal right next to (maybe even touching) the existing building. You maintain your distance from the gas systems and "technically" not 2 services on one building. But, I would think a placard indicating location of all disconnects (there is one more inside building not associated with the new exterior disconnect) in both panel locations for emergency personnel.
Now as far as multiple branches to a structure I think it could be argued that each component is either a seperate structure or all just equipment. Given the hazardous classification of the area, I would think a panic shunt trip button be placed at the equipment location that either takes out all the power to location or just leave lighting on.
Also sounds like this environment (industrial facility) would only be serviced by qualified facility personnel so some exceptions might be available from that.

 

[electrofelon]

Here is a simple solution. Don't mount the 400A disconnect on the building, put a pedestal right next to (maybe even touching) the existing building. You maintain your distance from the gas systems and "technically" not 2 services [color=red on [/color] one building.

Fred, I do not see any restriction on having two services mounted on a building if one of them does not supply or enter that building.

 

[electrofelon]

There are also lights on canopy. Also there are multiple branch circuits. Branch circuit supply load. One cannot have multiple branch circuit either

However by your account the 400A service is supplying equipments not separate structure? How could one have this service?

Clearly this is done all the time at gas stations. I understand this is a little bit different and probably not covered by article 514. I have provided you with several avenues,. 235.30(E) and calling the loads equipment and not structures. This is almost certain a classified area (article 515?) I would focus on those aspects and not obsess about the multiple circuit thing.

 

[Fred B]

Fred, I do not see any restriction on having two services mounted on a building if one of them does not supply or enter that building.

Wasn't indicating that, giving an alternative to OP that seemed to think it was an issue.

 

[hhsting]

Clearly this is done all the time at gas stations. I understand this is a little bit different and probably not covered by article 514. I have provided you with several avenues,. 235.30(E) and calling the loads equipment and not structures. This is almost certain a classified area (article 515?) I would focus on those aspects and not obsess about the multiple circuit thing.

The project is for this:

Washington Gas - A WGL Company

www.washingtongas.com

I dont which 500s but i am told this is hazardous classified area

Would control panel be called equipment? I see 100 has equipment i don’t see how it fit apparatus