Two wire no ground

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wrobotronic

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Colorado
Hello again. When remodeling a bathroom, the wire feeding said bathroom is only two wire with no ground. The EC has run new 12-2 for a new receptacle. Can the EC run a separate #14 ground back to the panel to obtain his ground or run it to the water pipe perhaps to obtain it?

As an electrician, I have always just ran new wire, however, this EC does not want to do that for some reason and I am trying to help him find a solution. That will be safe and comply with the NEC.

THANKS ALL...
 
I am confused -- if the ec ran a new 12/2 back to the panel then what are you asking. You cannot run a #14 equipment grounding conductor if the circuit is a 20 amp but yes one could run an equipment grounding conductor to the waterpipe where it enters the building or run it back to the panel.
 
...safe and comply with the NEC....

If it is labeled properly you can replace a non-grounding type with a GFCI type receptacle

406.4(D)(2)

(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of
receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment
Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not
be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type
receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuitinterrupter
receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where
supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Groundingtype
receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter
shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment
Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected
between the grounding-type receptacles.
 
The EC has run new 12-2 for a new receptacle. Can the EC run a separate #14 ground back to the panel to obtain his ground or run it to the water pipe perhaps to obtain it?

As an electrician, I have always just ran new wire, however, this EC does not want to do that for some reason and I am trying to help him find a solution. That will be safe and comply with the NEC.

THANKS ALL...

I am confused.

The two statements in bold seem to contradict each other.
 
What I get is that:
1. The EC ran a NEW 12-2 w/o ground.
2. He does not want to redo it properly.
3. Since it is a new device none of the options for replacements apply.
 
I am confused -- if the ec ran a new 12/2 back to the panel then what are you asking. You cannot run a #14 equipment grounding conductor if the circuit is a 20 amp but yes one could run an equipment grounding conductor to the waterpipe where it enters the building or run it back to the panel.

I will add a bit to this.

The EGC to the water pipe has to be sized based on the OCPD, the connection to the main water pipe has to be within 5' of the entrance to the building (Assuming the water pipe is part of the grounding system) if the water piping is not part of the grounding system do not use.

If the EC has a new circuit installed then you can use the EGC of the new circuit for the existing one.
 
Golly I screwed that up didn't I?
I will try again...
An existing 12-2 w/no ground comes from a 20A breaker in the panel. This existing circuit goes to a fixture box above what will be the vanity.

From this box the "new" portions of the bathroom are fed. IE The vanity fixture, fart fan, one receptacle, and the two single pole switches.

These runs from the vanity box are fed with 12-2 with ground.

The inspector previous to me, failed the installation for having no ground at the existing feed (above the vanity). Hence the EC, fished a green #14 THHN to the water pipe to obtain his ground. It appears that he used the same clamp that the water bond used, thus having a path back to ground.

While, I think this will work electrically, I am not sure it is ok per the NEC. I hope that clears up this mess.... Thank you.
 
Golly I screwed that up didn't I?
I will try again...
An existing 12-2 w/no ground comes from a 20A breaker in the panel. This existing circuit goes to a fixture box above what will be the vanity.

From this box the "new" portions of the bathroom are fed. IE The vanity fixture, fart fan, one receptacle, and the two single pole switches.

These runs from the vanity box are fed with 12-2 with ground.

The inspector previous to me, failed the installation for having no ground at the existing feed (above the vanity). Hence the EC, fished a green #14 THHN to the water pipe to obtain his ground. It appears that he used the same clamp that the water bond used, thus having a path back to ground.

While, I think this will work electrically, I am not sure it is ok per the NEC. I hope that clears up this mess.... Thank you.

#14 is undersized.

The "The same clamp" as the GEC clamp is not rated for two conductors let alone for a #14 and a larger one.

Install a #12 all the way to the panel or 2nd option, connect the #12 to the cold water pipe within 5' of where it enters the building. Again, make sure the cold water pipe is part of the grounding system. Verify it visually. Don't assume.
 
Golly I screwed that up didn't I?
I will try again...
An existing 12-2 w/no ground comes from a 20A breaker in the panel. This existing circuit goes to a fixture box above what will be the vanity.

From this box the "new" portions of the bathroom are fed. IE The vanity fixture, fart fan, one receptacle, and the two single pole switches.

These runs from the vanity box are fed with 12-2 with ground.

The inspector previous to me, failed the installation for having no ground at the existing feed (above the vanity). Hence the EC, fished a green #14 THHN to the water pipe to obtain his ground. It appears that he used the same clamp that the water bond used, thus having a path back to ground.

While, I think this will work electrically, I am not sure it is ok per the NEC. I hope that clears up this mess.... Thank you.
That once would have been compliant other then the new bonding conductor would have needed to be 12 AWG and not 14. This option went away about 1990 or 1993 NEC IIRC, I think mostly because of more use and replacement of metal water piping with nonmetallic piping may someday leave that installation not bonded again. It also wouldn't have been compliant to run it into the same terminal as the GEC or other bonding conductor - needs it's own terminal or separate clamp if only a one terminal clamp.

AFAIK though you still could run such a conductor (12 AWG though) to the same panel the branch circuit originates in, or to the grounding electrode conductor or a grounding electrode - which could be the first 5 feet of water pipe into the building, maybe even to the service equipment even if the branch circuit originates in another panel. This is all from recollection and may not be entirely correct.

I believe I was mostly correct - see 250.130(C) to see all your available options in this situation.
 
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One way of looking at it, which I think I favor, is that adding an EGC traveling a different path might make the existing circuit going the fixture box compliantly grounded, that does necessarily allow you to extend a grounded circuit from that point.
This seems to be one that will end up depending more on the AHJ than anything else.
 
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