Ufer AND Driven Grounds

[WCEI]

Dennis, I briefly checked FAQ’s before I posted this, but did not see it addressed. If I missed it in my haste, you can slap my hand.

We have had inspectors require that both a ufer and driven ground rods be used, and we have had inspectors make us remove the connection to the ground rods because a ufer was used.

Which is correct, and why and where is this referenced in the code?

 

[roger]

Do you mean UFER? All electrodes available or present must be connected together. Read 250.50

 

[WCEI]

Do you mean UFER? All electrodes available or present must be connected together. Read 250.50

Yes sir, darn spellcheck. Thank you.

 

[infinity]

We have had inspectors require that both a user and driven ground rods be used, and we have had inspectors make us remove the connection to the ground rods because a unfree was used.

Which is correct, and why and where is this referenced in the code?

You meant CEE or concrete encased electrode, slang name Ufer. You have some inspectors who need a tune up on the NEC. If both electrodes are present they both must be used as part of the GES. {250.50} If you have a CEE the NEC does not require any ground rods.

 

[WCEI]

You meant CEE or concrete encased electrode, slang name Ufer. You have some inspectors who need a tune up on the NEC. If both electrodes are present they both must be used as part of the GES. {250.50} If you have a CEE the NEC does not require any ground rods.

Our understanding too. Just wanted to be positive that I wasn’t missing something. Thank you.

 

[infinity]

Our understanding too. Just wanted to be positive that I wasn’t missing something. Thank you.

Why would someone have you disconnect the ground rods?

 

[roger]

Here's an illustration you can show the so called inspector.

 

[jaggedben]

...
We have had inspectors require that both a user and driven ground rods be used, and we have had inspectors make us remove the connection to the ground rods because a unfree was used.

Which is correct...?

Neither is correct.

 

[PaulEd]

Here's an illustration you can show the so called inspector.

Not everyone knows everything and maybe there is some sort of miscommunication here with WCEI and the inspector. It just seems electricians are incredible quick to make fun of, put down, or degrade their contemporaries.

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Not everyone knows everything and maybe there is some sort of miscommunication here with WCEI and the inspector. It just seems electricians are incredible quick to make fun of, put down, or degrade their contemporaries.

Maybe someone who sets themself up as an inspector should know what they are talking about.

 

[PaulEd]

Maybe someone who sets themself up as an inspector should know what they are talking about.

right but nobody knows everything.

 

[Birken Vogt]

right but nobody knows everything.

But this is a basic procedure that is used on every single service.

 

[roger]

Not everyone knows everything and maybe there is some sort of miscommunication here with WCEI and the inspector. It just seems electricians are incredible quick to make fun of, put down, or degrade their contemporaries.

And by correcting the so called inspector it will be contributing to his education. Trust me I'm as quick to show support when it's warranted.

 

[infinity]

Not everyone knows everything and maybe there is some sort of miscommunication here with WCEI and the inspector. It just seems electricians are incredible quick to make fun of, put down, or degrade their contemporaries.

In my experience the inspector who gets it wrong get challenged and corrected. I've heard more than once "I want it done my way" when they were completely wrong. Maybe this was a miscommunication but the OP didn't say that he thought that it was. As Birken stated this one is simple and not open to interpretation so the inspector either made a mistake or doesn't know the code.

For the record electricians make a lot more mistakes than inspectors.

 

[david]

6 × 6 treated post 5/8 ,decking boards. Solid as you would ever want to see a pedestal built.

Went as far as going with the owner to meet with the utility meter department.

You would need a tractor to pull it over, but the bottom line, it's being ripped out this weekend and metal post and uni- strut will replace the pedestal

That's what the utility requirements are.

If the utility requirements are ground rods your installing ground rods

The NEC says if a CEE is present your using it.

Every utility in PA as far as I know requlations state two ground rods, until that changes two ground rods it will be.

Before we can say who is right who us wrong, what does your utility say?

 

[roger]

Before we can say who is right who us wrong, what does your utility say?

The utility has no say in this conversation, take note of the forum the discussion is in, it's in the NEC forum. If you want to discuss any given utility's rules start another thread in the General Electrical Forum, thank you.

 

[acrwc10]

right but nobody knows everything.

Good thing there are code books to refer to.
I have found most people that want to challenge a call do it by saying stupid things like, "I've been doing it that way for XX years!" or "is that in the code or is it a local thing?" rather then say, "I'm not sure of that can you show me a code reference".
and there is the one constant "Plumbers argue everything" even when you show them the code. As a general rule/observation Electricians are the most informed people on the job site.

 

[david]

The utility has no say in this conversation, take note of the forum the discussion is in, it's in the NEC forum. If you want to discuss any given utility's rules start another thread in the General Electrical Forum, thank you.

If you read the OP POST it was asked if the inspector was right or wrong

Then it was asked what does the NEC SAY about it

First Energy
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So for at least 6 million services 2 ground rods will be required. By the "electrical inspector"

A two part question was yhe inspector or inspectors right or wrong

2nd part what does the NEC say about it

 

[roger]

So for at least 6 million services 2 ground rods will be required. By the "electrical inspector"

More than 6 million, two rods are required unless you can prove one meets 25 ohms or less. That still doesn't change the requirement that all electrodes present must be used and I didn't see anything in your link that said anything different. Are you saying your POCO is the "electrical inspector", if you are they must inspect to applicable codes.
The first sentence of 250.50 says

250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.

 

[david]

I'm saying in first energy area costumers agree to first energy requlations to be one of their costumers

To be an excepted electrical inspector in first energy territory you agree to insure service be in compliance with their requlations

When it comes to grounding and bonding first energy requires a min of two rods and a grounding electrode conductor that is continuous through both rods

They require grounding and bonding that meets or exceeds the nec requirements

The two ground rods with a continuous GEC through all the rods a min of two exceeds the NEC requirements by their requlations

Other utilities in this region do something very similar requiring ground rods for 100,000 services

I'm not trying to make this about utility regulations. I'm trying to answer the question about ground rods and inspectors.

The NEC requires cee that are present many utilities require ground rods in addition to what the NEC requires

To answer the OP the inspectors that require both rods and cee we don't know if they are right or wrong.

The inspectors that require the removal of qualifying electrodes after they have been installed are wrong