Ufer in completely buried hillside foundation? No access to a stub.

[whackit]

Hi Folks,

Long time lurker with a first post. I have a situation where I have to install a ufer and the foundation is completely buried on 3 walls (to 8') and there is no access on the fourth for a stub (garage entrance with lots of structural requirements - earthquake country). I imagine you east coast people with basements will be able to help me here. So I have two options.

1. completely encase connection in concrete and run conductor straight up inside of block wall to panel

2. completely encase connection in concrete and come up to ground level, bond with rod, through sill and down to panel.

Anybody have any experience with this situation?

Thanks!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Is this new construction?

 

[whackit]

Is this new construction?

Yes, new construction.

 

[ActionDave]

I'm unclear on what your question is. Your connection to the re-bar can be made to a vertical piece of re-bar as long as in winds up being tied to the footer steel some how, most of them are.

Is the concrete already poured?

 

[whackit]

I'm unclear on what your question is. Your connection to the re-bar can be made to a vertical piece of re-bar as long as in winds up being tied to the footer steel some how, most of them are.

Is the concrete already poured?

My inspector is saying I can't use the vertical steel. He didn't give me another option (helpful guy). Concrete not poured. So my issue is basically this. I have to come from the under slab footing either through the floor or up the wall on the other side. Just wondering if I am missing something as this is sort of unusual for me

 

[ActionDave]

Get over to the hood of your truck or down to the office, open up your code book to 250.52 and talk to the inspector about it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the concrete isn't poured then I don't understand why you can't connect to the rebar in the footing. I disagree with the inspector as the rebar in the wall is connected to the rebar in the footing-- or it should be so the connection should work anywhere IMO

 

[texie]

I'm unclear on what your question is. Your connection to the re-bar can be made to a vertical piece of re-bar as long as in winds up being tied to the footer steel some how, most of them are.

Is the concrete already poured?

I agree. And in the 2014 NEC 250.68(C)(3) was added to make this clear. The OP I don't think is on the 2014 but in my view this was always the intent and this was always allowed. In fact, many an AHJ required them this way.

 

[Smart $]

If the concrete isn't poured then I don't understand why you can't connect to the rebar in the footing. I disagree with the inspector as the rebar in the wall is connected to the rebar in the footing-- or it should be so the connection should work anywhere IMO

I agree. And in the 2014 NEC 250.68(C)(3) was added to make this clear. The OP I don't think is on the 2014 but in my view this was always the intent and this was always allowed. In fact, many an AHJ required them this way.

Here's the appropriate sentence of 250.52(A)(3) [2011] with pertinent phrase underlined: "Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or structural components or members that are in direct contact with the earth."

The interpretation may involve the part "in direct contact with the earth". The concrete cannot have any type of waterproof coating or insulating liner.

Another issue... the OP mentioned block wall. If the vertical rebar is embedded in CMU's, the fill is usually referred to as grout. The Code specifically says concrete. Semantics... :happyyes:

 

[whackit]

The interpretation may involve the part "in direct contact with the earth". The concrete cannot have any type of waterproof coating or insulating liner.

I believe that is the issue. The vertical surfaces have waterproofing. This paragraph is open to interpretation and that is how my inspector is interpreting it. I could go over his head but that's going to cost me a week. I would rather just figure it out.

 

[cadpoint]

You have to note that there will not be plastic under the concrete! A lot of times it will have
an apron of plastic which in fact is not desired in respects to direct contact of a Ufer!

I would bring up the Ufer where the main will sit!, you can put it in PVC and stand it up
if your concerned with the crowd or neighborhood, just cut out the PVC back when you hang the can!

 

[Smart $]

I believe that is the issue. The vertical surfaces have waterproofing. This paragraph is open to interpretation and that is how my inspector is interpreting it. I could go over his head but that's going to cost me a week. I would rather just figure it out.

I agree... easier to just work with the inspector.

I'd bond the GEC to the footer rebar and run it up, wire tying it to the vertical rebar, and bring it out where appropriate. Probably less costly to just run #6 to the ground rod.

 

[kwired]

Clamp a #4 to the rebar in the footer (with appropriate clamp) near location where the service will be and leave enough conductor to reach the service equipment. If concrete has not been poured yet it doesn't get much easier as you have many options of how to do it still available. It is when they have already poured concrete and you haven't connected your GEC to it yet that you need to get more creative sometimes on how to get it done.

 

[GoldDigger]

Even without a GEC connected to it the rebar in concrete (without plastic), a CEE (Ufer) will exist and you cannot simply ignore it by not connecting to it.