UFER not in direct contact with earth

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Wilsonv

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Hello, does anybody knows how inspectors are dealing when the foundation is not in direct contact with the earth, i.e; separated by a vapor barrier?

Regards
 
The building codes (Section 1910 of the IBC for example) refers to the 6 mil polyethylene as a vapor retarder, not barrier. This vapor retarder may indeed impede the earth resistance of the concrete encased electrode within a slab. There is no requirement in the building code requiring the vapor retarder to be installed within the footing, thus the integrity of the CEE is maintained if installed with the footer.
 
If there is anything between the concrete and the earth, you do not have concrete encased electrode.
3) Concrete-Encased Electrode An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm ( 1/ 2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means.
There is no requirement in the NEC to provide a CEE, only to use it if it is there.
Don
 
Ufer

Ufer

My jurisdiction they install Ufer in sidewalk rebar so no vapor barrier is in place. But even in a foundation wall it is a vapor retarder not barrier.
 
Abe,
My jurisdiction they install Ufer in sidewalk rebar so no vapor barrier is in place.
It has to be in a concrete footing or foundation, not a sidewalk.
But even in a foundation wall it is a vapor retarder not barrier.
It doesn't matter what it is or what it is called...if the concrete does not have direct contact with the earth, it is not a CEE.
Don
 
The concrete WILL have contact with the earth with vapor barrier. The contact will be on the sides of the slab (FLOOR) all around the perimiter of the slab. Dig down the side of the house an see if you find any vapor barrier.
 
Cavie,
The concrete WILL have contact with the earth with vapor barrier. The contact will be on the sides of the slab (FLOOR) all around the perimiter of the slab. Dig down the side of the house an see if you find any vapor barrier.
A slab (floor) is not suitable for use as a CEE as it is not a foundation or footing.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Cavie,

A slab (floor) is not suitable for use as a CEE as it is not a foundation or footing.

Slab does not qualify, but the side of a footing in contact does qualify IMO. I think this is what Cavie might have meant.
 
John,
I will agree that under the code wording the side of the footing would count, but that does not meet the intent as talked about in the ROPs and ROCs. One of the reasons that the CEE works well is the contact pressure created by the weight of the building between the concrete and the earth. That does not happen when the contact area is the side of the footing in place of the bottom. I also think that the code should specify a minimum depth in the earth before the concrete can be used as an electrode.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
John,
I will agree that under the code wording the side of the footing would count, but that does not meet the intent as talked about in the ROPs and ROCs. One of the reasons that the CEE works well is the contact pressure created by the weight of the building between the concrete and the earth. That does not happen when the contact area is the side of the footing in place of the bottom. I also think that the code should specify a minimum depth in the earth before the concrete can be used as an electrode.
Don

I agree with Don.

We don't allow vapor barriers under the CEE, even if they are run in the exterior footing with side "earth" contact.

Look at Exhibit 250.22 in the handbook. It shows the CEE with a minimum 2" encasement and the foundation in direct contact with the earth underneath.

TXInspect
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
John,
I also think that the code should specify a minimum depth in the earth before the concrete can be used as an electrode.
Don
Don: I would expect to see some refinement of the CEE rules now that is being required.
As far as depth of footing goes, in my area there is no frost depth. A footing can go directly on top of undisturbed soil. Other areas have 4 ft deep frost depths. It would take some documentation on the effectiveness of footings vs depth on the electrode resistance.
 
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