uh oh, another SA question

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

If the outlets are installed 'in accordance with', such as your plug mold example, than 210.52(B) states that they must be 20A SA outlets, because in the code rule it states 'in accordance with'.

It really is that simple.
If the outlet is part of (C) than it is part of (B). If it is part of (B), then it is a SA circuit and receptacle.

There is no other way around it. The language states it right in those to sections.
No exception is going to save you now.
No other code rule can touch it (i.e. 422.16).

 

[George Stolz]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This is an insert from the ?05 Handbook. Maybe it will help.

Exception No. 1 to 210.52(B)(1) permits switched receptacles supplied from general-purpose 15-ampere branch circuits to be located in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, and similar areas.

I was going to say, "Wow, if the guy who wrote that wrote the actual NEC text, we wouldn't be having a debate."

But then I realized that the NEC Handbook said "switched receptacles are permitted." Well, what if you don't switch them?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I was going to say, "Wow, if the guy who wrote that wrote the actual NEC text, we wouldn't be having a debate."

But then I realized that the NEC Handbook said "switched receptacles are permitted." Well, what if you don't switch them?

 

[jwelectric]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

Steve

I do agree that ALL those receptacles that are installed IN ACCORDANCE WITH 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5) SHALL be on the small appliance circuit.

You have thrown out of excuses and code rules that don't matter. Yes, cord and plug disconnecting means is allowable, but not for outlets on the countertop. Does a disposal or a dishwasher comply with 210.52(C)(1thru5), NO. Therefore it is not subject to 210.52(B). Neither woud a hood fan, because it is over 20".

I think that you must have been referring to the way you installed YOUR fan because I can find nowhere that requires the fan receptacle outlined in 422.16 to be over 20 inches high. I can remember in years gone by when dish washers rolled around and plugged in over the counter at the sink.
Wait a minute I think Maytag still has one here

It is clear that you are set in your mind so my advice to you is keep on keeping on.

 

[milwaukeesteve]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

Again you are looking for excuses.
Your dishwasher example is not valid. That is no longer a dishwasher, that is a small appliance. Check the definition of a small appliance (I think you even wrote it in a reply once).
Your fan example is not valid. An outlet that could be installed for a fan would be for disconnecting means of a permanently installed equipment. The outlet would not be readily accessible. And my favorite, IT WOULDN'T BE OVER THE COUNTER ANYWAYS!

You just admitted in your last reply that all the outlets that are installed in accordance to would be installed 'in accordance to' and therefore subject to the 'shall' that. Not maybe's, not sometimes, not minimum's, not just, not only.

 

[lesliek]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

I think this debate needs to be clarified as to which edition of the NEC applies (which is currently adopted by the AHJ).

That with expansions of the requirement of countertop receptacles being SAs (20 amp GFCI supplied circuts) to not just be 6' linear from countertops in kitchens but includes the ARC reference, and some fine changes in the areas that apply in both 2002 and 2005 NEC have now come to dispute here.

That the self-described "desk" "mini-office" area by the OP is in fact meeting the 2005 definition of a countertop (equal to or more than 6" in depth and equal to or more than 12" in width) and is contained (OP self-describes this) IN THE KITCHEN makes it a non-disputable point if 2005 NEC has been adopted by the OP's AHJ.

It is not a listed exception, therefore it must be served by a SA. SA circuits cannot include hard wired lighting outlets. Is this being disputed?

One should not quote the NEC Handbook as authority, as even NFPA warns it is the opinion of the editors, and is NOT official interpretation (read the forward of the handbook). The "handbook" has not been subjected to the "consensus" process that the NEC (NFPA 70) has.

I have yet to find a luminaire that complies with the tap rules for a 20 amp circuit (12 AWG min).


I don't believe that 210.11(C) allows this, the exception (C)(3) is limited only to a bathroom that is supplied by a dedicated 20 Amp GFCI circuit for a Single receptacle outlet (may be a duplex receptacle but single outlet and single yoke) allowing for a SINGLE luminare outlet.

It would seem obvious that UC in a kitchen would be required to be powered by other than a SA circuit therefore, and that any single receptacle (as enhanced defined under Art. 100) in the area of a countertop in a kitchen and other areas required (shall be) supplied by only SA receptacles would prohibit the use of a combination luminaire/15 amp receptacle unit in 15 amp supplied lighting circuit over such a kitchen counter that the face of the receptacle and/or the luminaire was within 20" of the countertop. These fixtures are often "box rated" and the wiring connections between the luminaire section and the receptacle section RARELY are 12 AWG (usualy 14 AWG or even 16 AWG) so this too would preclude its use in an area required to be supplied (receptacles) by 20 Amp circuit supplied receptacles (GFCI protected).

Perhaps some clarification as to which edition of the NEC applies to the OP and sticking to that version will aid in the development of a concensus here.

I've seen Mike Holt (our board host) being asked every edition of the NEC the same question in code quandries regards to pig tails/tap conductors below:

Q. I have a situation where a contractor used 15A, 125V receptacles on a 20A circuit with 12 AWG conductors and 14 AWG pigtails to the 15A receptacles. Is a 20A rated receptacle required and should the conductors to the receptacle be at least 12 AWG?
A. Yes and no. A 15A rated receptacle can be connected to a 20A branch circuit that supplies two or more receptacles. This would include a single duplex receptacle, because it contains two receptacles [210.21(B)(3)]. However, the tap rule contained in Exception No. 1 of 210.19(A)(4) is intended to prohibit the use of a 14 AWG pigtail from a 12 AWG branch circuit conductor protected by a 20A overcurrent protection device. So it's OK to install a 15A, 125V rated receptacle on a 20A circuit, but you can't install a 14 AWG pigtail on a 20A circuit.


It doesn't stop folks in "the field" from doing it every day. Mike's answer has been the same on this since the 90s, yet the question continues to be asked. Perhaps since you're all in disagreement, one should comprise a specific question to mike via email for consideration to his Code Quandires column.

 

[allenwayne]

Re: uh oh, another SA question

9 pages and still growing Qoutes from the hand book (which is not what is adopted in code requirements just like a loose interpetation of what someone thinks it should be) .If 20 electricians wrote 20 hand books there would be 20 different views 210 52 tells us what can and canot serve these areas with allowed exceptions.That is what is allowed not what we would like.If a receptacle outlet is switched above a cabinet it is allowed by code to be a 15 amp circuit but if not switched even though it goes above the measured height for a required receptacle it still has to be part of the 20 amp circuit it is in that room,there is no exception to the rule on that one.The thought that it is ok to install 15 amps on a countertop after requirements is met is silly what do you do label it for lighting only don`t plug that coffee maker in here!!!As far as plug in u/c/l`s I don`t see a problem they are plugged in and not hard wired.Same as a radio utilizing that receptacle or the trans. for the phone that has a jack on the counter top or the lap top that mrs. h/o`r has her recipies in as she cooks.GRRRRR