UL/CE

[Open Neutral]

Andrew S. Tanenbaum:
The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from.

So I'm seeking Current Transducers {w/4-20mADC out} for a project. There's a 400A 3ph 208 feed via "2 sets of 4#3/0 THWN 1 #2/0 CU (G)"

The transducers must slide over the paralleled phases. The CTD-400E2 I favor so far has 1.56" diameter donut hole err sensing orifice. I swag the #3/0 at .579" diameter each so think 2 will pass. I assume the PE will want them in a NEMA cabinet, but that's his dept; mine is just spec'ing what they will install.

Then it gets more interesting. Several firms sell {seemingly identical} CTD-400E2 units under their brand names, but some say the units meet UL, others say they meet UL/CE. (And if I were to want 0-10VDC out [into 10 MΩ, yes ten....] vs 4-20, those don't have UL but do have CE.)

My question:
Will the PE & AHJ on this job care about CE?

ps: the above feed is from the 100 KW backup generator to the Emergency Distribution Panel.....in a residence.

 

[Jraef]

CE means absolutely zilch in North America, it stands for "Conformité Européene", which is French for "European Conformity", meaning conforming to rules set forth in Europe for things like radio frequency and electromagnetic emissions. Our closest equivalency is FCC Rules and Regulations, Title 47, Part 15, where we get "FCC Class A and Class B" requirements for RFI emissions, which applies only to things that the FCC would be interested in. In Europe, they require that "conformity" on EVERYTHING that is electrical in nature. Bottom line though, it means nothing here.

You need UL listing if it is going to be installed in something that itself needs a UL listing. In MANY (but not all) states there is a rule stating that an "assembly", typically defined as having 5 or more components (not including the box), must be listed by an "NRTL", Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory, of which UL is the most widely known. So for a transducer, that will often depend on how you intend to use and mount it. Since these are current transducers only, so are NOT going to be connected to a line power source themselves and likely added to switchgear etc., then you probably don't need UL listing. But if you are putting 3 of these in a box with a power supply AND a set of terminals, then that assembly would need to be UL listed in many states, and therefore the components inside would all need UL listings.

 

[Open Neutral]

Since these are current transducers only, so are NOT going to be connected to a line power source themselves and likely added to switchgear etc., then you probably don't need UL listing. But if you are putting 3 of these in a box with a power supply AND a set of terminals, then that assembly would need to be UL listed in many states, and therefore the components inside would all need UL listings.

They will be physically separate from our 24V or less box (but connected to it). On previous installations, that's satisfied the AHJ.

There is a packaged 120V->24V power supply which could be inside the box or adjacent to it. It claims:

CE marked, designed to EN60950, GB4946, UL1950, certified and marked cUL

 

[GoldDigger]

They will be physically separate from our 24V or less box (but connected to it). On previous installations, that's satisfied the AHJ.

There is a packaged 120V->24V power supply which could be inside the box or adjacent to it. It claims:

CE marked, designed to EN60950, GB4946, UL1950, [B]certified and marked cUL[/B]

That notation is somewhat ambiguous. It could mean listed to UL standard by a Canadian NRTL or it might mean listed by UL to Canadian standards. Or something else entirely. Only the first one would be of any good for US customers.

 

[Jraef]

No, cUL is an acceptable mark in the US. It means tested to UL and CSA standards by UL and acceptable in Canada. The reciprocal is C_UL, which is the same thing (UL and CSA listing) but administered by CSA, and CSA is an acceptable NRTL per the OSHA list.

 

[raider1]

They will be physically separate from our 24V or less box (but connected to it). On previous installations, that's satisfied the AHJ.

There is a packaged 120V->24V power supply which could be inside the box or adjacent to it. It claims:

CE marked, designed to EN60950, GB4946, UL1950, certified and marked cUL

I agree with Jraef,

The cUL mark indicates that UL has evaluated the product to the Canadian Standards ONLY and this product is not listed for use in the US to US Standards. For the product to be Certified (Listed) for use in both the US and Canada it would be marked with the cULus mark.

The CE mark is NOT a Listing mark and is not Recognized by OSHA.

On a side Note UL1950 has been Replaced by UL60950-1 which is Titled "Information Technology Equipment - Safety - Part 1: General Requirements"

Chris

 

[Open Neutral]

I agree with Jraef,

The cUL mark indicates that UL has evaluated the product to the Canadian Standards ONLY and this product is not listed for use in the US to US Standards.

Now I'm confused, as

Jraef

No, cUL is an acceptable mark in the US. It means tested to UL and CSA standards by UL and acceptable in Canada.

 

[raider1]

Now I'm confused, as

Sorry I didn't mean to confuse you.

Jraef was correct in regards to the CE mark but is in error with the cUL mark.

The cUL mark indicates that UL has evaluated the product to the Canadian Standards ONLY and the product is not Certified (Listed) for use in the US.
Products that are listed to US standards will have the UL mark and products that are listed to both US and Canadian will have the cULus mark.

You can find out more information about the Marking requirements for UL Certified (Listed) products HERE

Chris

 

[Jraef]

But... a CSA listing is acceptable in the US by itself.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

 

[GoldDigger]

But... a CSA listing is acceptable in the US by itself.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Just to be clear, a CSA listing is valid in the US as long as the testing was done to US (usually UL) standards.
A CSA listing only to Canadian standards means nothing in the US.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[retirede]

Just to be clear, a CSA listing is valid in the US as long as the testing was done to US (usually UL) standards.
A CSA listing only to Canadian standards means nothing in the US.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Depends on the AHJ. At least that's how it was when I was responsible for the equipment we manufactured (admittedly more than just a few years ago). We only had CSA approval - and As I recall, there was only one CSA standard, nothing different for the US.
We had a very few locales (LA and NYC come to mind) that required us to UL label our control panels to 508.

 

[fifty60]

The interesting thing between UL and CE, is that CE in THEORY should be better than the UL mark. The reason I think this is that nobody knows the equipment better than the actual manufacturer. If the manufacturer can identify the exact standards they need, and focus only on that set of standards, then they will be much more laser focused on that set of standards than UL, which is focused on ALL the standards. If done correctly, and all the documentation maintained to a high ISO standard, the CE mark should be way better than anything UL can give you.

At one point I was working a lot with Lab equipment that was tested to the same IEC standard by UL and CE (IEC 61010). UL called it UL61010, and CE called it BS-EN61010, but they were word for word the same standard. After going through the CE marking process with BS-EN61010, I definitely cannot count on one hand the number of times I had to school the UL inspector on 61010 and how it pertained to our equipment, and how our equipment met 61010. They constantly wanted to use other standards to justify what they were doing, and not 61010 itself...and in the end it was 61010 they were supposed to be using so I won probably 90% of the arguments with UL.

That being said, the CE mark is definitely not acceptable as an NRTL in the United States...but in theory, the method that the CE mark uses of manufacturer responsibility and declarations of conformity SHOULD have more efficacy than UL...but I doubt the NRTL system will ever change to the CE model..

 

[GoldDigger]

The CE method only works if you feel you can trust the honesty and quality control of the individual manufacturer.
Even the biggest companies in some fields have been caught cheating on standards lately.

 

[fifty60]

Yeah, for the same reason Communism doesn't work the CE Mark method of "manufacturer declarations" does not always work either...human nature is its undoing.

 

[raider1]

But... a CSA listing is acceptable in the US by itself.
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Just to be clear, a CSA listing is valid in the US as long as the testing was done to US (usually UL) standards.
A CSA listing only to Canadian standards means nothing in the US.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

To Clarify, CSA is a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory in accordance with the OSHA NRTL Program. They can List products to any of the Standards that OSHA Recognizes them for.
You can find the list of NRTL's and the Standards they are recognized to test to HERE

Just like with UL, CSA Lists products to both US Standards and Canadian Standards, only those products that bear a mark indicating that it is listed to US Standards is acceptable in the US.

Chris

 

[raider1]

The interesting thing between UL and CE, is that CE in THEORY should be better than the UL mark. The reason I think this is that nobody knows the equipment better than the actual manufacturer. If the manufacturer can identify the exact standards they need, and focus only on that set of standards, then they will be much more laser focused on that set of standards than UL, which is focused on ALL the standards. If done correctly, and all the documentation maintained to a high ISO standard, the CE mark should be way better than anything UL can give you.

Sometimes when a Manufacture is "Laser focused" on a specific set of Standards, they may not realize that another Standard may also apply to their product. Not all products fall neatly into a single set of Standards, sometimes there are many Standards that apply. Having a company like UL who has over a hundred years of experience in the safety testing and evaluation field can be a benefit to a manufacture.

Chris

 

[raider1]

The CE method only works if you feel you can trust the honesty and quality control of the individual manufacturer.
Even the biggest companies in some fields have been caught cheating on standards lately.

Exactly, we saw how honest VW was.

Chris