Jay Oberholtzer
Member
Does NEC code require all electric signs be UL (third party) listed? If so what does the code say?
UL listed signs
- Thread starter Jay Oberholtzer
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Yes it is in 600.3
Jay Oberholtzer
Member
Followup Question
Followup Question
Are you sure? Why is there a special permission clause? Couldn't this be used as a loophole for cities to get around this code.
Followup Question
Are you sure? Why is there a special permission clause? Couldn't this be used as a loophole for cities to get around this code.
- Location
- Logan, Utah
600.3 is specific as Bob has pointed out.
If an AHJ approves an unlisted sign then that would be by special permission.
As an Inspector, you would have to have a very convincing argument to persuade me to approve an unlisted sign by special permission.
Chris
If an AHJ approves an unlisted sign then that would be by special permission.
As an Inspector, you would have to have a very convincing argument to persuade me to approve an unlisted sign by special permission.
Chris
- Location
- Massachusetts
I can't even imagine what a convincing reason would be for an honest inspector.
Jay Oberholtzer
Member
Enforcement?
Enforcement?
Is there a place we can go to get a clarification or ruling from the overseer of the NEC code? To find out what the intent of the code is. Because our building officials here are using the special permission as a loophole, to allow non-listed signs to be installed in our city.
Enforcement?
Is there a place we can go to get a clarification or ruling from the overseer of the NEC code? To find out what the intent of the code is. Because our building officials here are using the special permission as a loophole, to allow non-listed signs to be installed in our city.
- Location
- Logan, Utah
The intent of the code is that electric signs be listed by a 3rd party testing agency. This alleviates the AHJ from having to evaluate the internal wiring of each and every sign that is manufactured.
IMHO, the reason for 600.3 to allow an unlisted sign by special permission is to give an AHJ the ability to approve a unique sign that may be a one of a kind or possibly have other circumstances that make listing of the sign hard or impossible.
If the local AHJ has approved unlisted signs by special permission, I would ask them to explain what the special circumstances were that they felt the sign need not be listed.
Chris
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
The AHJ has the authority to waive any code section requirement when it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety. (Section 90.4)
Typcially, special permission is given, in writting, case specific, and includes conditions. There also needs to be a legal basis for the judgment such as a declatory statement made by some governing body that identifies the the conflict, establishes a resolution, and justifies the resolution with substantiation.
The only other option is to legally amend or modify the code in compliance with the administrative rules of the state or local jurisdiction. Even then, unless the AHJ can show they have the special knowledge, training, or means to determine the non-listed signs are safe and in compliance with the applicable standards, there would be no basis for the code modification and would likely not hold up in court or under legal review.
Typcially, special permission is given, in writting, case specific, and includes conditions. There also needs to be a legal basis for the judgment such as a declatory statement made by some governing body that identifies the the conflict, establishes a resolution, and justifies the resolution with substantiation.
The only other option is to legally amend or modify the code in compliance with the administrative rules of the state or local jurisdiction. Even then, unless the AHJ can show they have the special knowledge, training, or means to determine the non-listed signs are safe and in compliance with the applicable standards, there would be no basis for the code modification and would likely not hold up in court or under legal review.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
Not to hijack but it may be a situation the OP is seeing. I have done work for a local sign company that makes and ship signs all over the US. The owner holds a special electrical license in NC for signs. The scope of his license lets him/his employees under his supervision, install the wiring and fixtures and wire to the load side of the disconnect on the sign. When the sign is installed the line side wiring must be installed and/or connected by a licensed elect. who holds the proper license in that state. What I don't know/wonder if he hold a certification for building and wiring the signs from a third party listing agency that allows them to be built and installed with out inspection on each sign.
You can contact the NFPA or even ask for a formal interpretation but that won't get you very far, the NEC is not a law and does not even have to be used if not adopted by a jurisdiction. If the AHJ approved the sign it is pretty much a done deal.
Roger
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
The citation of 600.3 is incomplete and, as such, misleading.
600.3 ALSO states that neither 'field installed skeleton lighting' or 'outline lighting' need be listed.
As for imagination ... well, it's not the purpose of any code to 'imagine' every possible situation, now and forever. I dare say such an undertaking is simply not possible. It wasn't that long ago that the NEC could not 'imagine' a sign mounted in the middle of a fountain - and, thus, created a conflict between sections. (I guess the code panel never met in Las Vegas
) True, the conflicts were later resolved in a revision of the NEC- but the incident demonstrates the limits of imagination.
Implicit in the OP's question is also the manner of 'listing.' It bears repeating that UL is not the only game in town. His competitors might be ETL listed, or by yet another body.
600.3 ALSO states that neither 'field installed skeleton lighting' or 'outline lighting' need be listed.
As for imagination ... well, it's not the purpose of any code to 'imagine' every possible situation, now and forever. I dare say such an undertaking is simply not possible. It wasn't that long ago that the NEC could not 'imagine' a sign mounted in the middle of a fountain - and, thus, created a conflict between sections. (I guess the code panel never met in Las Vegas
) True, the conflicts were later resolved in a revision of the NEC- but the incident demonstrates the limits of imagination.Implicit in the OP's question is also the manner of 'listing.' It bears repeating that UL is not the only game in town. His competitors might be ETL listed, or by yet another body.
- Status