UL relays

[Open Neutral]

I'm involved with a project with a number of relays mounted inside a steel box in a residence, and switching 240VAC (1 or 3∅)
Do the relays need to be UL approved?

 

[augie47]

"Approval" of equipment is up to the AHJ.
The AHJ may well take into account any listing by a NRTL such as UL in determining his approval.

 

[gar]

170817-1711 EDT

What are the relays for?

I suggest you look at GE RR relays that are two coil pulsed mechanically latching relays with substantial current capability and low voltage drop.

.

 

[Jraef]

I'm involved with a project with a number of relays mounted inside a steel box in a residence, and switching 240VAC (1 or 3∅)
Do the relays need to be UL approved?

3 phase in a residence?

 

[gar]

170817-2402 EDT

Jraef:

There are at least two residences in my neighborhood with 3 phase (wild leg). I could have it if I wanted it.

But, I just go to the shop when I want to play with three phase where we have 240 with a wild leg, two transformers. DTE will only add a third transformer if the loading gets too high.

We have a lot of wild leg service around here.

.

 

[Open Neutral]

3 phase in a residence?

Well, one of the single phase mansions err houses has 800 A service.....
Wouldn't 3 have made better sense?

And to respond to another aspect, the relays drop out on power failure; latching is the last thing we want.....
We're using Struthers-Dunn 450 series.

BTW, rural Califunny seems to have lots of open-Delta 3∅ for deep well pumps.

 

[gar]

170819-1328 EDT

Open Neutral:

Why do you want your relays to drop out on power loss?

An ordinary SPST wall switch does not drop to off on power loss, it just stays in the last state it was set to.

..

 

[Open Neutral]

170819-1328 EDT

Open Neutral:

Why do you want your relays to drop out on power loss?

An ordinary SPST wall switch does not drop to off on power loss, it just stays in the last state it was set to.

..

Because we stage the restart sequence. That's the whole point of the project.

 

[Belevolk]

UL approved

UL approved

Time to gingerly talk to your inspector.

Where I live UL 508 is a common occurrence. It is ul parts AND a ul assembly which might be the got ja on your installation.
The recommendations for the GE RR's is right on. They are rated for 20 amps and when properly sized pretty bullet proof.
You can even get them with a set of wires that you can use for status. I did a lightning panel where each room had 3 RR-9's and the return was daisy chained together to use as the status light. No light time to go trouble shoot.

 

[Open Neutral]

Time to gingerly talk to your inspector.

Where I live UL 508 is a common occurrence. It is ul parts AND a ul assembly which might be the got ja on your installation.
The recommendations for the GE RR's is right on. They are rated for 20 amps and when properly sized pretty bullet proof.
You can even get them with a set of wires that you can use for status. I did a lightning panel where each room had 3 RR-9's and the return was daisy chained together to use as the status light. No light time to go trouble shoot.

The relays are mounted and wired by the EC; we just provide 24vac to their coils.

I looked up "GE 99" and they appear to be SPST latching relays. We need DPDT form B or C, not latching.
We also need DIN Rail mounting.

I'm spec'ing Struthers Dunn 450XBX50L-24VAC units for up to 50A, and we seek a 80-100A DPDT 24VAC contactor for those circuits. Thus far, no standouts.

 

[gar]

170913-2126 EDT

Open Neutral:

You need to provide an accurate description of what exactly you want to do and why. Otherwise you won't get very useful answers.

Why do you want to stage turn on after a power interruption?

For a residence a single phase makes the most sense to me. I don't care what the power company loading is at restoration of power. That is their problem.

.

 

[Open Neutral]

I'm not free to go into specifics as to the end application, but my query may be moot anyhow. While I've found Struthers-Dunn 450 series relays with a 50A rating, I'm not having much luck finding contactors with two or three poles of NC contacts in the 80-100 Amp range.

Chatting with someone in the relay industry, we both recall contactor stacks where you could flip the armature contact around to be NC or NO, but they are long gone, it seems. He was thinking they were Ward Leonard, but I don't recall any name.

 

[Jraef]

I'm not free to go into specifics as to the end application, but my query may be moot anyhow. While I've found Struthers-Dunn 450 series relays with a 50A rating, I'm not having much luck finding contactors with two or three poles of NC contacts in the 80-100 Amp range.

Chatting with someone in the relay industry, we both recall contactor stacks where you could flip the armature contact around to be NC or NO, but they are long gone, it seems. He was thinking they were Ward Leonard, but I don't recall any name.

Ward Leonard became Joslyn Clark, they still sell them but are hard to find. But those were lighting contactors. Square D still makes and sells them too, but in both cases the ones with convertible (NO or NC) contacts don't go above 30A.

 

[Jraef]

If all you need is 80-100A and just 2 poles (DPDT), you can get that from ABB. Look for the AF80-22-00-12 for the 105A version with a 120V coil, 2NO, 2NC power poles. Not going to be cheap though...

 

[drktmplr12]

I'm thinking a UL508 shop should be involved somehow.. or an off the shelf, enclosed and NRTL listed contactor assembly installed. Talking to the AHJ to see what they would accept might save headache down the road.

as mentioned by others, it isn't entirely clear what you are trying to do except "stage the restart sequence, that's the whole point of the project" and you need to disconnect two circuits when power goes out. Do you need a timer to delay closing of the contactor when power is restored?

Square D and Eaton both make IEC contactors similar to what Jraef is suggesting.

 

[Open Neutral]

Square D and Eaton both make IEC contacors similar to what Jraef is suggesting.

I keep looking for them......

 

[Open Neutral]

I keep looking for them......

By that I mean virtually everything I find is NO/Form A; the exception being Jraef's finding an ABB.

 

[drktmplr12]

By that I mean virtually everything I find is NO/Form A; the exception being Jraef's finding an ABB.

Call Square D tech support, 877-342-5173. Tell them what you are trying to do and they should be able to tell you what product line you should be directing your attention to.

Alternative, Call Eaton tech support, 877-386-2273 and ask the same.

Maybe have the ABB part # ready-they should be able to find a cross reference product easily that way.

Hope this helps!

 

[Open Neutral]

Call Square D tech support, 877-342-5173. Tell them what you are trying to do and they should be able to tell you what product line you should be directing your attention to.

Alternative, Call Eaton tech support, 877-386-2273 and ask the same.

Maybe have the ABB part # ready-they should be able to find a cross reference product easily that way.

Hope this helps!

Thanks. Square D insists any NC/DT contactor is a safety hazard, assuming I guess that everything is a motor starter.
They do offer the LC1D80008-B7 2xNO, 2xNC, for ~~$500

Eaton has nothing.

 

[drktmplr12]

Thanks. Square D insists any NC/DT contactor is a safety hazard, assuming I guess that everything is a motor starter.
They do offer the LC1D80008-B7 2xNO, 2xNC, for ~~$500

Eaton has nothing.

No problem. Glad I could help!