UL vs Non-UL Liquidtight

[Carultch]

What are some of the applications of when you would want to use the UL vs Non-UL version of LFMC?

Unlike most conduit products, where the UL rating usually comes standard as it applies, manufacturers and distributors supply both versions of LFMC and even mark it as "non-UL" on datasheets. So it seems like the answer to this would be more systematic than just "that's up to your AHJ".

Anyone have any insight on this?

 

[iwire]

There is no NEC compliant use of unlisted conduit for chapter 3 wiring methods.

You may be able to use it for chapter 8 applications.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The supply houses have it because their customers want to save a bit of money....in my area, you will automatically get the non-listed version unless you tell the supply house that you want the listed version.

I asked a manufacture why they still made the non-listed type....he told me it is not a violation to sell, only a violation to install it....as long as the customers want to buy it, we will make it.

As far as I know, equipment manufacturers are permitted to use the non-listed version, but it has been a violation to use it for most NEC applications since the 1996 code.

 

[templdl]

What are some of the applications of when you would want to use the UL vs Non-UL version of LFMC?

Unlike most conduit products, where the UL rating usually comes standard as it applies, manufacturers and distributors supply both versions of LFMC and even mark it as "non-UL" on datasheets. So it seems like the answer to this would be more systematic than just "that's up to your AHJ".

Anyone have any insight on this?

It may end up being up to the AHJ's approval based upon NEC art 110-2.

 

[iwire]

It may end up being up to the AHJ's approval based upon NEC art 110-2.

Not without a local amendment to the sections that require listed conduit.

 

[kwired]

There is probably a fair amount of this product being sold that is not getting inspected, for various reasons, or there is a fair amount of inspectors that don't even realize there is a non listed product out there and are just ignorant to the issue. They may be like some others and think why would they even make an unlisted product and assume all of the LT flex they see is listed.

 

[jaggedben]

Why would a manufacturer have a listed and non-listed version of a product? Does this really happen, and are there real differences between the products. Or are you only paying for a stamp in the case of the listed product? Does it really make sense for them to have two production lines? If there are real differences between the two products, doesn't that give you pause before buying the non-listed version?

I get that a supplier may have the same product from different manufacturers, only one of which has gone through the listing process. I have difficulty believing that one will often encounter it from the same manufacturer.

 

[gadfly56]

Why would a manufacturer have a listed and non-listed version of a product? Does this really happen, and are there real differences between the products. Or are you only paying for a stamp in the case of the listed product? Does it really make sense for them to have two production lines? If there are real differences between the two products, doesn't that give you pause before buying the non-listed version?

I get that a supplier may have the same product from different manufacturers, only one of which has gone through the listing process. I have difficulty believing that one will often encounter it from the same manufacturer.

An inventory decision was made before I joined the company to carry the non-UL version of LFMC-VF. We use it for making whips for connections from addressable modules to flow and tamper switches in fire alarm systems. The brand name is LIQUID-TUFF by Kaf-Tec. Some day I'll get around to talking to the warehouse guy about switching it.

 

[augie47]

Why would a manufacturer have a listed and non-listed version of a product? Does this really happen, and are there real differences between the products. Or are you only paying for a stamp in the case of the listed product? Does it really make sense for them to have two production lines? If there are real differences between the two products, doesn't that give you pause before buying the non-listed version?

I get that a supplier may have the same product from different manufacturers, only one of which has gone through the listing process. I have difficulty believing that one will often encounter it from the same manufacturer.

Locally the supply houses stock both. In the brands they stock, the real world difference, among other things, is that there is not bond wire in the non-listed product.
I asked UL about this once and if I recall correctly, a manufacturer can use the less expensive product and stil obtain UL certification as with equipment UL looks at the "crush" resistance
and apparently not the bonding (take that with a grain of salt as it is dependant on my failing memory but it has a degree of accuracy )

 

[kwired]

Why would a manufacturer have a listed and non-listed version of a product? Does this really happen, and are there real differences between the products. Or are you only paying for a stamp in the case of the listed product? Does it really make sense for them to have two production lines? If there are real differences between the two products, doesn't that give you pause before buying the non-listed version?

I get that a supplier may have the same product from different manufacturers, only one of which has gone through the listing process. I have difficulty believing that one will often encounter it from the same manufacturer.

It happens, maybe more places then one realizes.

Back when it was common to find pole bracket mount mercury vapor fixtures there were tons of them sold that were not listed most of them went to municipalities and/or POCO's for street and roadway lighting and around here a lot were put on poles on farm places as well. The main differences between those and the listed ones was there was no equipment ground lead and there was no conduit entry provision on the non listed ones. They just ran the leads down the pole bracket and connected to open conductors.

The non listed ones were sold in so much more volume they were much better priced - but use them in a place that gets inspected and if inspector realizes they were not listed he can reject them - even more so today than back then as NEC now says all luminaires must be listed.

I always run into non listed equipment on farms. Never gave it much thought until about 10 years ago when I was wiring a poultry building when a ventilation equipment guy told me they can't sell the unit they had at this site in Minnesota (which is where he was from) because it is not listed. Ever since then I noticed most of that kind of equipment is not listed - but there is usually no inspections on these kinds of places here.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Why would a manufacturer have a listed and non-listed version of a product? Does this really happen, and are there real differences between the products. Or are you only paying for a stamp in the case of the listed product? Does it really make sense for them to have two production lines? If there are real differences between the two products, doesn't that give you pause before buying the non-listed version?

I get that a supplier may have the same product from different manufacturers, only one of which has gone through the listing process. I have difficulty believing that one will often encounter it from the same manufacturer.

There are differences, for one the non-listed product is more flexible, also it doesn't have the bonding strip that makes it suitable for use as an EGC. I also recall reading that the non-listed version does not have the crush strength that is required for the listed product.

There are non-NEC uses for the non-listed product and there is demand for the product from electrical contractors that want to save a bit of money even though it is a code violation.

 

[GoldDigger]

In addition to not being inspected, lighting poles owned and operated by POCO are arguably not subject to NEC. Including the luminaires themselves and the pole wiring.

 

[scrypps]

The supply houses have it because their customers want to save a bit of money....in my area, you will automatically get the non-listed version unless you tell the supply house that you want the listed version.

I asked a manufacture why they still made the non-listed type....he told me it is not a violation to sell, only a violation to install it....as long as the customers want to buy it, we will make it.

As far as I know, equipment manufacturers are permitted to use the non-listed version, but it has been a violation to use it for most NEC applications since the 1996 code.

This is awful, if I found out I hired an electrician and he used non-listed products, I'd fire him.



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[don_resqcapt19]

This is awful, if I found out I hired an electrician and he used non-listed products, I'd fire him.
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Very few people that hire electricians have any idea that the NEC even exists let alone what it may require.