Uncovered Field Conditions

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Designer69

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in a retrofit job contractor uncovered some floor boxes under the carpet which are still wired and live. Per our field survey we did not see these since they were covered.

they are saying those boxes are not part of their contract.

my question is... is it required that they be disconnected (wires removed) and removed from floor/filled w/ concrete? Can just the wires be removed and box stay on the floor?

what's the cheapest/best way you would remedy this?
 
Designer69 said:
in a retrofit job contractor uncovered some floor boxes under the carpet which are still wired and live. Per our field survey we did not see these since they were covered.

they are saying those boxes are not part of their contract.

my question is... is it required that they be disconnected (wires removed) and removed from floor/filled w/ concrete? Can just the wires be removed and box stay on the floor?

what's the cheapest/best way you would remedy this?
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In electrical work, that is almost always an oxymoron type statement.


If you want cheapest, leave it be, there is no requirement by the NEC to remove the existing work...there may be a local code though.

The best method most likely cannot be determined by sitting at my computer. The person in the field will have to determine what is the best method to dealing with the floor outlets.
 
In my experience electrical designers are those with anything less than an EE degree.

This may cover the full gamut from someone with a Electrical Technology degree, to someone with varying degrees of electrical experience but lacking a degree, to someone who takes scribbled engineered sketches and reproduces them in CAD.

Heck, I have been in some places where everyone was called an engineer regardless of experience or degrees.
 
What type of floor boxes?

I think abandoned underfloor duct cable need to be removed. They sell blanks to cover the access holes.

Core drilled may special fire rating issues.

Single "gang" floor boxes fed by conduit, who knows but a proper blanking plate should be used.

Pierre,
The state of Wisconsin actually has licensing procedures for electrical designers. They are relatively easy to get if you already have a master's license.
 
jim dungar said:
What type of floor boxes?

I think abandoned underfloor duct cable need to be removed. They sell blanks to cover the access holes.

Core drilled may special fire rating issues.

Single "gang" floor boxes fed by conduit, who knows but a proper blanking plate should be used.

Pierre,
The state of Wisconsin actually has licensing procedures for electrical designers. They are relatively easy to get if you already have a master's license.
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Thanks Jim

What makes you say "I thnk abandoned underfloor duct cable needs to be removed."
As I mentioned, this work is not regulated by the NEC for removal such as some wiring methods in Chapter 8 and parts of Chapter 7.

Unless it is damaged or unsafe...something only the person onsite can determine, it is not a real concern.
 
MIEngineer said:
Heck, I have been in some places where everyone was called an engineer regardless of experience or degrees.
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Here's where *real* engineers work: :smile:

GE9CAB.JPG
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Thanks Jim

What makes you say "I thnk abandoned underfloor duct cable needs to be removed."
As I mentioned, this work is not regulated by the NEC for removal such as some wiring methods in Chapter 8 and parts of Chapter 7.

Unless it is damaged or unsafe...something only the person onsite can determine, it is not a real concern.
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Article 390.7 in NEC2005
 
Sorry to chop in - but easier to identify context of my reply....
Designer69 said:
in a retrofit job contractor uncovered some floor boxes under the carpet which are still wired and live. Per our field survey we did not see these since they were covered.
EC/contractor and all concerned did not know they were there and not in contract = CHANGE ORDER!

they are saying those boxes are not part of their contract. That's right - NIC = CHANGE ORDER! (Unless you had some vague stipulation in contract to cover this type of varguary????)

my question is... is it required that they be disconnected (wires removed) and removed from floor/filled w/ concrete? YES! Unless you cover them somehow in an acessible manner with correct cover plates. Can just the wires be removed and box stay on the floor? Same... But at this point you need to romove all wiring and make it no longer a raceway - many inspectors will also want you to remove and make unsuable any entering or exiting conduits - then you could "Bury it"

what's the cheapest/best way you would remedy this? Disconnect wiring and use blank covers for the purpose.
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Hope that helped....
 
jim dungar said:
Article 390.7 in NEC2005
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If the 05 says the same (out in the truck) as the '02 then only the wiring for a single point of a single receptical point would need to be removed - as the splice could not remain. But if repulled to remove the splice the conductors could stay. But if all of them are being removed and buried - remove all the wiring IMO...
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
I am curious.
I have read many times the bio-tag for some is ... "Electrical Designer".

What exactly is an electrical designer?

Do you have a PE or equivalent?

What are the qualifications to be an electrical designer?
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Anyone (degree or not) performing electrical design under the direct supervision of a Registered Professional Engineer. We call them technicians, but that's just another name for designer.

Keep in mind, there are many folks with engineering degrees, that never pass the FE/EIT or get a PE, and therefore will be remain forever a "Designer".
 
kingpb said:
Keep in mind, there are many folks with engineering degrees, that never pass the FE/EIT or get a PE, and therefore will be remain forever a "Designer".
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I disagree. If you have been awarded a BS degree in any engineering field from an accredited college or university, then you are an ?engineer.? If you pass the two tests and get the state license, then you become a ?Registered Professional Engineer.? You have to get the license, before you can advertise or perform services in engineering. In the mean time, you can work under the supervision of a PE, and still call yourself an engineer.

To my mind, a ?Designer? is a person who does not have a BS degree in engineering, and who performs certain design tasks under the supervision of a PE. Most of the designers I have known began their careers as drafters and CAD operators, and learned the processes of engineering design while creating drawings of designs that were conceived by others.
 
One of the best engineers I have ever known had no degree or formal status as an engineer, but was an engineer non the less. He designed , built and programed systems that the "qualified" engineers failed at. He had forty years of experience at making things work. All of us are required to be engineers at times, degreed or not. It seems unfair to me to be giving Pierre a hard time about what his status as an engineer is. I read his stuff here and have never had the occasion to question his knowlege base or give a rats ass what his status as an electrical designer means. We are all electrical designers.
 
By Florida Law I cannot call myself an engineer. I have a BS have passed the FE and PE exams but since I can not be registered as an engineer under the FLorida laws I am not an engineer. That is why I am a designer although all of my designs exceed what is minimally required to pass permitting and construction.

Sore subject for me.:mad:

On the original post, I would disconnect the wiring and put on blank cover plates and hand the GC the bill.
 
charlie b said:

I disagree. If you have been awarded a BS degree in any engineering field from an accredited college or university, then you are an ?engineer.? If you pass the two tests and get the state license, then you become a ?Registered Professional Engineer.? You have to get the license, before you can advertise or perform services in engineering. In the mean time, you can work under the supervision of a PE, and still call yourself an engineer.

To my mind, a ?Designer? is a person who does not have a BS degree in engineering, and who performs certain design tasks under the supervision of a PE. Most of the designers I have known began their careers as drafters and CAD operators, and learned the processes of engineering design while creating drawings of designs that were conceived by others.
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In other fields such as electronics, aeronautics, automotive, sanitation, locomotive, etc. I would agree that you can call yourself an engineer and no one really cares. You can call yourself president of the world for all I care, but that doesn't make it so.

States are very clear on when you can call yourself an engineer, which includes advertisement on business cards and the like. So, in your mind you can think of it anyway you would like, but the practicality of it, is as BoaterBill stated, and is evident by the laws of other states as well.

On the flip side, being a Registered Engineer does not mean you know what your doing. It simply means you can now be sued.
 
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