Undersized grounds, what year?

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I was working in a hardware store in the late 60's and the size of the EGC in NM was changed while I was working there...I would guess the 65 or 68 code, but don't know for sure.
 
infinity said:
Good guess, it changed in 1968. :)
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Yup. And even then, that was in the Holy Writ of the NEC, not on the calendar that we do our work by.

Once the 1968 NEC was published, it still had to be adopted into effect for an area which could have taken years.

So the exact answer of the OP question: "Until what year did the NEC permit undersized grounds in branch circuits?" would be, "Until the year of the local adoption of the 1968 NEC."
 
mbrooke said:
It is indeed what NEC. Looking at the 1965 NEC EGC were indeed allowed to be significantly reduced.
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My earliest wire stripping memories include dealing with the oddly figure eight shaped green plastic insulation, of some brands, on the reduced ground of that eras NM with ground.
 
al hildenbrand said:
My earliest wire stripping memories include dealing with the oddly figure eight shaped green plastic insulation, of some brands, on the reduced ground of that eras NM with ground.
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I wonder why they stopped insulated grounds. Probably because they are not required but a good idea IMO.
 
iwire said:
You mean the conductor that connects to all kinds of bare metal all around us?

Seems a like a waste of resources.
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They called it ESD grounds for electronic stuff--ESD "electrical static dissipation" I think, but that was big in the 90's, don't know about these days.

Edit:blink:

Now that I have read the whole thread, I think the EGC is bare in romex so it cannot be used as an ungrounded conductor.

Disregard my comments above:D
 
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al hildenbrand said:
Yup. And even then, that was in the Holy Writ of the NEC, not on the calendar that we do our work by.

Once the 1968 NEC was published, it still had to be adopted into effect for an area which could have taken years.

So the exact answer of the OP question: "Until what year did the NEC permit undersized grounds in branch circuits?" would be, "Until the year of the local adoption of the 1968 NEC."
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Well if we want to be technical, those EGC's in question were not undersized, they were just permitted to be smaller then they were after 1968 NEC went into effect:happyyes:

iwire said:
You mean the conductor that connects to all kinds of bare metal all around us?

Seems a like a waste of resources.
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Do you pull insulated or bare EGC's when using raceway's, wireways, etc.? If you use insulated - you are wasting resources:p

Working in a hot panel with a bunch of dangling bare conductors is not exactly fun. Of course these days everyone follows 70E and do not ever work in an energized panel, right?
 
iwire said:
You mean the conductor that connects to all kinds of bare metal all around us?

Seems a like a waste of resources.
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The rest of the world doesn't think that way. Sleving EGC is a norm. And how many tucked in receptacles trip AFCI because the bare bond is touching the noodle?
 
kwired said:
Well if we want to be technical, those EGC's in question were not undersized, they were just permitted to be smaller then they were after 1968 NEC went into effect:happyyes:

Do you pull insulated or bare EGC's when using raceway's, wireways, etc.? If you use insulated - you are wasting resources:p

Working in a hot panel with a bunch of dangling bare conductors is not exactly fun. Of course these days everyone follows 70E and do not ever work in an energized panel, right?
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Which makes me wonder why the upsize. In Canada reduced grounds are still permitted. Earth fault loop impedance theory may have stricken again. :lol: (not that I don't think it has its place)
 
mbrooke said:
The rest of the world doesn't think that way.
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Sorry, I thought you were able to think for yourself. :D


Sleving EGC is a norm. And how many tucked in receptacles trip AFCI because the bare bond is touching the noodle?
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I don't have those numbers and I don't care about them, you are suggesting a bandaid to cover up sloppy work.
 
mbrooke said:
Which makes me wonder why the upsize. In Canada reduced grounds are still permitted. Earth fault loop impedance theory may have stricken again. :lol: (not that I don't think it has its place)
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Again with the other countries, this is 'merica we do what we want. :D


I have no proof but have heard we stopped using reduced size EGCs due to the physical strength / durability of the conductors and nothing to do with the electrical characteristics.
 
mbrooke said:
The rest of the world doesn't think that way. Sleving EGC is a norm. And how many tucked in receptacles trip AFCI because the bare bond is touching the noodle?
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I don't lose sleep over it but I would like to see insulated grounds in NM cable too. I have seen a few cables with it. I would like it especially for multi gang switch boxes. The more devices, the more live terminals. Yes, proper packing helps a lot but sometimes a wire still follows its own course when the device is pushed in.
 
jmellc said:
I don't lose sleep over it but I would like to see insulated grounds in NM cable too. I have seen a few cables with it. I would like it especially for multi gang switch boxes. The more devices, the more live terminals. Yes, proper packing helps a lot but sometimes a wire still follows its own course when the device is pushed in.
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you could splice your incoming bare wires together tuck them deep into the box and make pigtails to the switches with insulated conductors.
 
iwire said:
Sorry, I thought you were able to think for yourself. :D




I don't have those numbers and I don't care about them, you are suggesting a bandaid to cover up sloppy work.
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Sometimes :lol::p I only bring it because IMO a sleeved type EGC is an extra layer of safety, most IEC countries are renowned for having very high standards. And think about it, why does MC have an insulated EGC?

But you do make a point, an insulated EGC only comes up during a fault, usually triggered by sloppy work.




iwire said:
Again with the other countries, this is 'merica we do what we want. :D


I have no proof but have heard we stopped using reduced size EGCs due to the physical strength / durability of the conductors and nothing to do with the electrical characteristics.
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America got it right IMO :D A full sized EGC has better electrical characteristics when clearing a fault.


jmellc said:
I don't lose sleep over it but I would like to see insulated grounds in NM cable too. I have seen a few cables with it. I would like it especially for multi gang switch boxes. The more devices, the more live terminals. Yes, proper packing helps a lot but sometimes a wire still follows its own course when the device is pushed in.
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Same here. IMO insulated grounds are low on the scale of necessity. But a good idea to have for the exact reason you mention.
 
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