Understanding Code - Please Assist

[corkscrew]

I hope someone can advise me as I am getting conflicting electrical advice. I am installing a Hot Tub in my backyard and am in a very STUCK position. I've attached an image of the layout of my backyard so you can understand my situation.

My property:
about 45-50 wide/30 or so deep.
Power cable and phone run along the back fence.
Transformer, top of pole in back corner.
Power connections and cable tv come across property at angle and are about 18ft about where the water would be, but not directly over.
Connections to house on top story.Phone Lines run down opposite side.

WHat I've been told:
Person 1: You don't have any areas that will not break code. Tub must be 22 ft from the transformer, overhead cable, the back yard cable running alon fence,where it attaches to the house, and the eletrical meter. When you go 22ft from all these it takes up the whole back yard.

Person 2: "We'll make it work, don't worry about it."

Person 3: "No, 22ft doesn't matter. What matters is if the cable falls to the ground it has to be 10ft from the tub. And, if it's not 10 feet you just have to put a pergola over the top."

Which is most accurate?
Do you see any areas in my property of the two proposed areas that will work?
Do the meter on the outside of the house count as 22ft?

Please help! Thanks in advance.

 

[charlie b]

Although members of this forum are not permitted to provide "how-to" assistance to a do-it-yourself installer, I do not think this is the present case. This person appears to be getting conflicting advice from three electrical contractors. Also, the question is not about how to do something, but rather whether a given location is within code requirements.

So I will allow this question to remain.

 

[Buck Parrish]

All right , let me get my book.

 

[corkscrew]

Thank you all. The people I've talked to, all three, are either electricians, those who work with electric and code on a daily basis, so I just don't know who to beleive. I don't want to violate codes or put people in danager.

I am fine putting a pergola like structure over the top of this if I have to, but I am still concerned about this 22ft or 10 foot rule. If a covering structure changes certain rules...I don't know they've told me different things.

Thanks so much.

 

[charlie b]

I am not really familiar with the pool rules. I just did a quick read through article 680, and here is the limited amount that I just learned.

First, the 22 feet (actually, 22.5 feet) has to do with the height a power wire would have to be, if it ran directly over the pool. Your wire is less than that height, so your pool could not be directly under it. But that was not your plan anyway. So I agree with "person 3," in that the 22 feet rule does not apply to your installation.

Secondly, I did see the 10 foot rule that person 3 talked about. I did not, however, see anything about building something over the pool, if the 10 foot clearance cannot be met. Looking at your sketch, it looks possible that you could get the pool into the lower right corner. But your sketch is not to scale. What would have to happen is that the nearest edge of the water, or of the platform you stand on to get into the water, has to be 10 feet horizontally from a line on the ground directly under the service wire.

I did not see any rules about clearances from the meter or from the point of connection to the house.

 

[Buck Parrish]

I agree with Charlie. Also the 22 ft height rule was made for the use of pool skimmers with the long alumiinum poles.

If it we're possible to bring the service wires to the side of the house where the phone comes in. That might be a good option. You would have to talk to a power co. engineer. An electrician would have to set a main disconnect at that location.

 

[corkscrew]

correct. in either of the locations, the spa would not be "directly" under the spa. if the cable were to fall direclty down it would be within 10 feet of the primary choice location, it would not be within 10 ft of the secodary location.

One concern I had was the rules said 22.5ft under or WITHIN....in almost any location it's under or within 22feet from the wire, transformer, meter, or where it connects to the house.

The first person who stuck to the 22ft rule said it had a lot to do with the elctrical field generated. I guess he seemed to think that electricity would connect or arc into the water...when you say 22.5 taht's not some arbitrary number...it's kind of specific...which makes me wonder why it's so specific.

I am not sure where they got the "covered" exception.....makes sense, but I am not sure where it's written. I am in Delaware by the way.

 

[Buck Parrish]

We're useing the National Electrical Code 2008 eddition. Table 680.8
In this table spas we're placed in their with swimming pools. It does say 22.5 ft in any direction up from the waters edge. This is for long aluminum skimming poles.
For example, if the wire we're laying on the ground. It could be ten feet away and be okay.
If your at 18 ft. now. Perhaps the power company could move the wire up a few feet.

You should seek advice from you local city or county inspector. Make sure your electrician pulls a permit. I think the answer in the original post is good. #2 -"Will make it work"

 

[charlie b]

The first person who stuck to the 22ft rule said it had a lot to do with the electrical field generated. I guess he seemed to think that electricity would connect or arc into the water.

That is utter nonsense.

When you say 22.5 that's not some arbitrary number...it's kind of specific...which makes me wonder why it's so specific.

Can?t tell you. I noticed that it changed from 22 feet, in the 1999 NEC, to 22.5 feet, in the 2002 NEC. My guess was going to be that the ?non-specific? number was metric, and that the 22.5 was just the nearest conversion from metric to US. But the metric number is 6.9 meters, so that is not the answer.

 

[Jhaney]

Another option would to contact your power company and have your service trenched in at a more desireable location.... such as along the property line and then over to your meter base... Keep in mind this would be at your expense, also catv and phone will do the same thing if you bother them enough.

 

[corkscrew]

but, couldn't you say, any direction up could be from the water up to the left or right? I guess I am thinking of it this way. If I were to draw a straight line from that wire 22.5ft in any direction, I can not have the tub there. AM I wrong in this?

Should I only be concerned with if the wire falls that it is not within 10 feet of the water?

Also...Hope I was clear, the transformer and wires in the back are for the whole neighborhood.

Now, Do I need to worry about where it connects to the house? (22ft)

Another possibilty could be in the middle of the back of the house, along the house. But do I need to be a certain distace from the outside meter?

Thanks for your patience.

 

[Jhaney]

reviewing 680.8
overhead communication (phone, catv) have to be not less than 10ft above swimming pools, diving structures, stands, towers, or platforms

overhead power - insulated cables (service drop) shall have a clearance of 22.5ft in any direction to the water level, edge or water surface, base of diving platform, or permanently anchored raft.

overhead power - 0-15kv (non insulated cable) shall have a clearance of 25ft in any direction to the water level, edge of water surface, base of diving platfrom, or permanently anchored raft.

680.10
underground wiring location.
underground wiring shall not be permitted under the pool or within 5ft horizontally from the inside wall of the pool unless this wiring is to supply pool equipment.

I hope that helps out with the confusion...

 

[corkscrew]

So, as I read that (I don't know how interpritation works) -

overhead power - insulated cables (service drop) shall have a clearance of 22.5ft in any direction to the water level, edge or water surface, base of diving platform, or permanently anchored raft.

So how I read it, if I run a 22.5ft measuring tape in any and all directions, not just up, if I hit - a power line, transformer, the connector on the house, etc it violates code.

correct? I have no idea how the 10ft on the ground plays into this or what superceeds what.

Do meters on the outside of the house count for any distances?

 

[Jhaney]

So, as I read that (I don't know how interpritation works) -

overhead power - insulated cables (service drop) shall have a clearance of 22.5ft in any direction to the water level, edge or water surface, base of diving platform, or permanently anchored raft.

So how I read it, if I run a 22.5ft measuring tape in any and all directions, not just up, if I hit - a power line, transformer, the connector on the house, etc it violates code.

correct? I have no idea how the 10ft on the ground plays into this or what superceeds what.

Do meters on the outside of the house count for any distances?

I couldn't locate anything to specify the distance from the meter socket on the house but since you have overhead cable running to the meter I would keep the pool the same distance away as you would the service drop... My reasoning is the service drop touches it and you can't be withing 22.5ft of the drop so you can't be within 22.5ft of the meter. Now if the service drop were buried then I would say 5ft because of the underground service 5ft rule personally I would put it farther away if I could.
hopefully someone else will pop on here and give you a better answer

Not saying your going to but DO NOT use a tape measure to determine distance from where you want to put the pool and any form of power line, phone, or catv!!!!! Call your local POCO or and electrician to take these measurements with a height stick!!

 

[corkscrew]

Heh! Yeah, i'm not that stupid. Just an example...that would be a You Tube moment.

 

[charlie b]

I have no idea how the 10ft on the ground plays into this or what supersedes what.

I think I am understanding it a bit better. Imagine a cylinder surrounding the power line, having a radius of 22.5 feet. That cylinder cannot be in contact with the water, or with the base of the diving board (if any).

Now imagine a right triangle, and get ready to try to remember the Pythagorean Theorem. Start at the edge of the water, or the edge of the diving platform (if any), or the edge of the observation stand (if any), whichever is closest to the path of the overhead wire. Go horizontally, along the ground, until you get to the ?place the wire would fall, if it broke.? That is the first side of the triangle. That distance must be at least 10 feet, but in your case it turns out that it must be a bit more than that, as we will see shortly. Now go upwards, till you get to the overhead wire. That is the second side of the triangle. You gave us 18 feet as that distance. The hypotenuse of the triangle is from the power line to the point you started at. The length of the hypotenuse must be at least 22.5 feet.

So my working of the Pythagorean equation tells me that you need to be at least 13.5 feet horizontally along the ground, in order for the hypotenuse to be at least 22.5 feet, given that the height of the wire is 18 feet.

Do meters on the outside of the house count for any distances?

I think not. I cannot find anything in the NEC that would address the meter. If someone else is telling you that it does matter, then ask them to give you the code article number. If they try to just say, ?Article 680,? tell them you need them to be more specific. That talks about pools, but I cannot find anything about meters in that article.

 

[Jhaney]

Nicely worded charlie b. that explains it much better than I was....

 

[charlie]

NESC, not the NEC

NESC, not the NEC

Let us not forget that these drops (power and communications) are all probably owned by the local utilities and are covered by the NESC and not the NEC. There has been a harmonization effort to correlate both codes so they are close to the same so the 22 ft. dimension for the power service drop was raised to 22? feet in the NEC and it is actually 23 feet if the service drop is not cabled with a grounded messenger. The clearance to the diving platform or tower is 14? (cable) or 15 feet. This is found in the NESC rule 234E and Table 234-3.

If the service is underground and there is no other way to install the cable, it may actually go under the pool if it is protected. This is found in the NESC rule 351C1. :smile:

 

[cowboyjwc]

You also might want to check with you local POCO. Ours here told us that they overhead lines to the house belong to them and there for the requirements come out of their book. Which, for a private pool, is 12' for a 12' radius.

And here is another example of why you should read all the answers before you post. Good answer Charlie.

 

[charlie]

. . . for a private pool, is 12' for a 12' radius. . .

I can't believe they are not following the NESC!?! :-?