Unlisted light fixture

[KevinVost]

I'm looking for information on a fixture company. The company is Mohawk. They make a pendant light that was shipped to a site, that did not come with a UL sticker. The designer just happened to have the "UL sticker that the factory forgot to put on", and fowarded that to the builder, who gave it too the inspector. Since UL does not allow the field application of it's stickers unless a UL rep is on site, the whole situation went south. The builder has no info on the fixture and the designer is not returning any calls. The builder does not want to pay to have a field evaluation done, due to cost.

Anyone ever heard of this company? I tried an online search and found nothing .

 

[barbeer]

Could you contact your local UL rep(you do have one) and run all this by him? I can understand the builder not wanting to eat the designer's cost, been there done that.

 

[wireguru]

take the UL number off the sticker, check ULs database to see who the sticker really belongs to. I bet its not whoever made the lamp.

 

[KevinVost]

I've already been in contact with UL. They are working on it from their end. The preliminary report I got from UL was, the sticker was not issued to the company that made the light :roll:. I've already gone on line and the number on the sticker turned up no results . That said, I was hoping someone here could help or had heard of this company.

 

[cowboyjwc]

My guess is that Mohawk is a brand name and not a manufactures name.

I had the same thing happen on a job and at the end it was just simpler for them to replace the fixtures than to make the ones they had work.

The thing with my job was that they had UL stickers, but I said that there was no way that they were UL approved and the UL rep agreed with me.:roll:

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

My guess is that Mohawk is a brand name and not a manufactures name.

I had the same thing happen on a job and at the end it was just simpler for them to replace the fixtures than to make the ones they had work.

The thing with my job was that they had UL stickers, but I said that there was no way that they were UL approved and the UL rep agreed with me.:roll:

UL does not "approve" equipment, material, etc...
UL lists and labels.

 

[electricalperson]

i see a lot of fancypants light fixtures that costs 1000s of dollars that dont have UL stickers

 

[iMuse97]

i see a lot of fancypants light fixtures that costs 1000s of dollars that dont have UL stickers

So did you hang them anyway?

The really custom ones I've done never had the sticker, but the company I worked for didn't make a big deal out of it, and it wasn't my call to do anything.

And Kevin: No I have not heard of Mohawk lighting.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Unless listing of luminaires for the particular type of installation you are performing is required to be listed (such as Hazardous locations), the luminaire may not need listing. Check for local laws/codes as well.
In the case the listing is not required, the AHJ may reference 90.4.

Remember, there are many products installed by electrical personnel that are not listed.

 

[roger]

I know this is not the same as the OP's situation but, a number of the fixtures in my house are rebuilt (by me) antique fixtures that never had a listing and still don't.

I would think an electrician and/or inspector could evaluate a fixture as to whether or not it's safe to install.

Roger

 

[nakulak]

I know this is not the same as the OP's situation but, a number of the fixtures in my house are rebuilt (by me) antique fixtures that never had a listing and still don't.

I would think an electrician and/or inspector could evaluate a fixture as to whether or not it's safe to install.

Roger

as a practical matter that may be the case. unfortunately, there is a liability issue.

 

[roger]

as a practical matter that may be the case. unfortunately, there is a liability issue.

That is probably the reason many inspectors are afraid to "approve" anything and totally rely on a third party listing?

Maybe the bold text below should be removed from 90.4

90.4 Enforcement
This Code is intended to be suitable for mandatory application by governmental bodies that exercise legal jurisdiction over electrical installations, including signaling and communications systems, and for use by insurance inspectors. The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules.

and changed to

The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code need not be knowledgeable in this code, all approval shall be left to a testing lab. Where installations can not be tested or examined by a testing lab the installation shall not be allowed, this shall include all field installed wiring

Roger

 

[KevinVost]

That is probably the reason many inspectors are afraid to "approve" anything and totally rely on a third party listing?
Maybe the bold text below should be removed from 90.4



and changed to



Roger

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner.

Our AHJ has amendments requiring all installed luminairies be listed and labled. They have also issued guidelines for the inspectors to follow, one of which reads: If there is no label on the fixture, the fixture is not acceptable. This comes from the liabilty end.

 

[mthead]

Unlisted light fixture

I'd have to say that we have finally touched on a variation a what was a pet peeve of mine when I worked as an electrician.
The 2 variations on this theme are 1]The 'Designer suugests a fixture-for some reason designers more often than not seem to lean towards fixtures manufactured in europe-the downside to this is that this will also increase the likelihood that the fixture will not be UL listed-I'm not saying that because something is produced in europe it willnot be ul listed --I'm saying that when it comes to lighting fixtures in particular this problem will present itself.
That was variation 1.Variation 2 is the reall good one.
2]The designer and client[thats our eager h/owner] head off for a day of lighting fixture shopping down to Canal St. in NY,with side trips up and down Bwery,Spring,And Grand avenues downtown[Hotspots for Antique shops,lighting/antique shops,and lighting shops that sell fixtures as new that should be considered as antiques].
The result that is eventually handed to us -the electricians is an 'item'-I am generally reluctant to call it a fixture.
You find yourself studying the "item" and saying to the h/owner "Did the store have this displayed as it should be installed--ya know,I mean this is a wall sconce so was it installed on a wall display and lit up?"
At this time as you hold your breadth,because you're pretty sure you know the answer---
well if things go the wrong way the h/owner will say
"No -none of the fixtures in the store were lit up or on a wall-they were hung fron a chain on the cieling".
It is at that time you realize you now face variation2--you don't have a fixture in your hand-you have a piece of art in your hand-and you now know that you now are faced with explaining that a piece of art is just that -it is not a fixture no matter how many zip cord and bulbs youjury rig to it.
Once again you realize that a big shooed brightly colored imaginationland interior designer has somehow found his way into the world of electric-a world which makes little sense to him,just as his kind is often very puzzling to us.
Variation 2 is 'A fixture is a fixture and a piece of art is just that-a piece of art."
Art should not be electrified and turned into a fixture-
It should be hung and then illuminated to bring out all its beauty thru the use and proper installation of a fixture designed for the purpose.
While normally I am quick to accept the hard guy rep for my view on something like this,I will say that in respect to this in particular -my feelings came from too many years working high end jobs where this scenario was THE NORM-we were given pieces of art the the designer said was a fixture-however there was no way to mount this fixture[allways seemed to be a wall sconce]-why?because it never had been intended to be used that way.
What did we do-we did unfortunately what so many of us will do-we got the job done-I'll give you one example--
H/owner purchases thru his designer 25 wall sconces .When he saw them they were hanging from the cieling..,by a string.
Thats because there was no mounting method incorporated in the design of this fixture.

And the answer once again is because it wasn't a fixture.
We designed a method using a spun brass back plate[in keeping with the 'tone' of the fixture] that allowed for proper securing of the device or and or
fixture clearance,and ease of removal if repairs were needed

 

[roger]

I'd have to say that we have finally touched on a variation a what was a pet peeve of mine when I worked as an electrician.
The 2 variations on this theme are 1]The 'Designer suugests a fixture-for some reason designers more often than not seem to lean towards fixtures manufactured in europe-the downside to this is that this will also increase the likelihood that the fixture will not be UL listed-I'm not saying that because something is produced in europe it willnot be ul listed --I'm saying that when it comes to lighting fixtures in particular this problem will present itself.
That was variation 1.Variation 2 is the reall good one.
2]The designer and client[thats our eager h/owner] head off for a day of lighting fixture shopping down to Canal St. in NY,with side trips up and down Bwery,Spring,And Grand avenues downtown[Hotspots for Antique shops,lighting/antique shops,and lighting shops that sell fixtures as new that should be considered as antiques].
The result that is eventually handed to us -the electricians is an 'item'-I am generally reluctant to call it a fixture.
You find yourself studying the "item" and saying to the h/owner "Did the store have this displayed as it should be installed--ya know,I mean this is a wall sconce so was it installed on a wall display and lit up?"
At this time as you hold your breadth,because you're pretty sure you know the answer---
well if things go the wrong way the h/owner will say
"No -none of the fixtures in the store were lit up or on a wall-they were hung fron a chain on the cieling".
It is at that time you realize you now face variation2--you don't have a fixture in your hand-you have a piece of art in your hand-and you now know that you now are faced with explaining that a piece of art is just that -it is not a fixture no matter how many zip cord and bulbs youjury rig to it.
Once again you realize that a big shooed brightly colored imaginationland interior designer has somehow found his way into the world of electric-a world which makes little sense to him,just as his kind is often very puzzling to us.
Variation 2 is 'A fixture is a fixture and a piece of art is just that-a piece of art."
Art should not be electrified and turned into a fixture-
It should be hung and then illuminated to bring out all its beauty thru the use and proper installation of a fixture designed for the purpose.
While normally I am quick to accept the hard guy rep for my view on something like this,I will say that in respect to this in particular -my feelings came from too many years working high end jobs where this scenario was THE NORM-we were given pieces of art the the designer said was a fixture-however there was no way to mount this fixture[allways seemed to be a wall sconce]-why?because it never had been intended to be used that way.
What did we do-we did unfortunately what so many of us will do-we got the job done-I'll give you one example--
H/owner purchases thru his designer 25 wall sconces .When he saw them they were hanging from the cieling..,by a string.
Thats because there was no mounting method incorporated in the design of this fixture.

And the answer once again is because it wasn't a fixture.
We designed a method using a spun brass back plate[in keeping with the 'tone' of the fixture] that allowed for proper securing of the device or and or
fixture clearance,and ease of removal if repairs were needed

And your point is?

Roger

 

[cpal]

2008 NEC

410.6 Listing Required.
All luminaires and lampholders shall be listed.

 

[roger]

2008 NEC

410.6 Listing Required.
All luminaires and lampholders shall be listed.

Sad isn't it Charlie? :wink:

Roger

 

[nakulak]

I can understand your point, Roger, but everything has a good and a bad side. Old school carpenters used to bitch and moan because trusses started being manufactured in plants, then engineered wood came along etc etc, but houses are still houses and the sky didn't fall in. There may come a time when houses end up built in a modular fashion to the point where everything is plug and play and all the wiring is done with reloc connectors, but its just possible that whatever shakes out in the future is safer than what we consider to be safe installation methods now, simply due to the unarguable fact that, regardless of the attempt to provide quality field installion, quality control methods/testing/evaluation can be implemented in a factory setting that are nearly impossible to adequately install in a field installation that is essentially customized to each project

 

[roger]

I can understand your point, Roger, but everything has a good and a bad side. Old school carpenters used to bitch and moan because trusses started being manufactured in plants, then engineered wood came along etc etc, but houses are still houses and the sky didn't fall in. There may come a time when houses end up built in a modular fashion to the point where everything is plug and play and all the wiring is done with reloc connectors, but its just possible that whatever shakes out in the future is safer than what we consider to be safe installation methods now, simply due to the unarguable fact that, regardless of the attempt to provide quality field installion, quality control methods/testing/evaluation can be implemented in a factory setting that are nearly impossible to adequately install in a field installation that is essentially customized to each project

You're missing my point, it has nothing to do with modern methods, it has to do with dumbing down electricians and inspectors.

If we are to prescribe to some testing lab for our approval we might as well get rid of the NEC and let listing labels govern the whole trade shouldn't we?

If I were a trade experienced inspector I would be insulted that people writing code articles would think I was incapable of approving an installation or product with out some self proclaimed testing labs sticker on it, maybe you would want it if you were an inspector, but I don't see the need for it across the board.

Roger

 

[nakulak]

You're missing my point, it has nothing to do with modern methods, it has to do with dumbing down electricians and inspectors.

If we are to prescribe to some testing lab for our approval we might as well get rid of the NEC and let listing labels govern the whole trade shouldn't we?

If I were a trade experienced inspector I would be insulted that people writing code articles would think I was incapable of approving an installation or product with out some self proclaimed testing labs sticker on it, maybe you would want it if you were an inspector, but I don't see the need for it across the board.

Roger

you are missing my point.

We are in a transition stage in the industry.

Currently, everything installed in most homes in between listed items is a mish mash of field customized wiring which cannot be quality controlled by the same methods that are employed for the listed items. This is the weak link in current installations, and often the cause of failures.

The trend is to provide a complete listed system which can provide for a higher level of confidence. This will be a system in which items such as field splices, and customized field wiring will be all but eliminated in order to increase the reliability of the installation. Yes, this will be dumbing down "the trade", but ultimately providing for safer and more uniform installations, in the interest of safety. Let's face it, insurance companies just want people to pay their premiums; they are not at all interested in providing money to repair or replace damage.