Unsafe Subpanel

[Will Wire]

Problem: Customer's original bottom fed G.E. 100-amp meter/distribution panel was converted to a sub panel without isolating the grounded conductors from the equipment grounding conductors. The panel is being fed through the bottom meter and neutral lugs, on the Utility side that are now jumped to the top meter lugs connected to the 100-amp main. Plastic meter cover in place. The sub panel is about 8" from the new 200-amp service.

My understanding is that this is not right or safe at all. Because of NEC 250.24(A)(5) in the very least the grounded conductors should be on an isolated and insulated buss bar, separate from any equipment grounding conductors, or any non-current carrying parts.

If the grounded conductors are isolated on an insulated Neutral buss bar, will that be an acceptable fix? Are there other Code violations?

Thanks, Trent
California: NEC 2020 Edition

 

[LarryFine]

If you have a four-wire feeder, and it's done correctly, that'll work.

 

[infinity]

If the grounded conductors are isolated on an insulated Neutral buss bar, will that be an acceptable fix? Are there other Code violations?

Yes if you can install an isolated neutral bus and reconfigure the neutrals and EGC's it will be code complaint. The EGC bus would be bonded to the enclosure.

 

[norcal]

Yes if you can install an isolated neutral bus and reconfigure the neutrals and EGC's it will be code complaint. The EGC bus would be bonded to the enclosure.

Is that a good idea? It is so far from it's intended use and just being a cheapskate instead of doing it right.

 

[jap]

Never seen this done before, and, I never would, but, if it were allowed at all, and I had to, I'd be S canning the jumpers that bypass the meter and be landing the subfeed wiring from the new panel directly on the 100a Breaker Terminals and new isolated neutral Lug.

Better yet would have made the new panel large enough circuit wise to take the branch circuits that were originally in the meter main and extended them to the new panel.

Oh well.

JAP>

 

[infinity]

Is that a good idea? It is so far from it's intended use and just being a cheapskate instead of doing it right.

How would you "do it right"?

 

[Will Wire]

Clarification: The meter of the new service is not being bypassed. The jumpers I was referring to are across the old meter lugs of the G.E. panel which is being fed via the lower lugs from the new service. The meter of the G.E. panel was removed and replaced with a plastic cover.

 

[Will Wire]

My understanding is that to do it right, the old G.E. panel needs to be replaced with an actual sub-panel with an insulated and isolated neutral buss bar. Separating the Grounded Conductors from the Equipment Grounding Conductors.

 

[tthh]

If the new panel is 8" away from this panel now converted to sub-panel, it should be pretty easy and all you need is what LarryFine said - 4 conductors - 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Alternatively, if the circumstances allow, you can convert it to a 120V-only panel and use the existing 3 conductors. In either case, you will need to install an insulated bar for the neutral. Not sure how I feel about the plastic cover where the meter used to be.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I would expect that the original meter main, is listed as "suitable for use as service equipment only". There is not likely a way to make this compliant as a non-service panel as I expect the neutral at the meter part of the equipment is permentantly bonded to the enclosure.

 

[norcal]

How would you "do it right"?

Replace it for one suitable for the purpose, not jury rigging a meter main that probably labeled as "Suitable only for use as service equipment" or something close to that.

 

[GoldDigger]

Replace it for one suitable for the purpose, not jury rigging a meter main that probably labeled as "Suitable only for use as service equipment" or something close to that.

My understanding is that for "ONLY" the neutral bar is bonded to the cabinet with no provision for removing that bond. As a practical matter, if the manufacturer offers a standalone insulated neutral bar and there is room to install it, the installation should work properly.

The question that remains is whether the addition of that manufacturer-supplied part overrides the "ONLY" designation in the labeling.

See also https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads...suitable-for-use-as-service-equipment.2568470 .

 

[jap]

Get rid of the old Meter/Main all together and bring those circuits into the new panel that's only 8 inches away.

Seems like a waste to refeed something that close when upgrading in the service in the first place.

JAP>

 

[don_resqcapt19]

My understanding is that for "ONLY" the neutral bar is bonded to the cabinet with no provision for removing that bond. As a practical matter, if the manufacturer offers a standalone insulated neutral bar and there is room to install it, the installation should work properly.

The question that remains is whether the addition of that manufacturer-supplied part overrides the "ONLY" designation in the labeling.

See also https://forums.mikeholt.com/threads...suitable-for-use-as-service-equipment.2568470 .

But since this is a meter main, I expect the meter neutral is directly and permanently bonded to the enclosure and there would be no way to make it compliant for use as sub-panel.