unusual problem after service change

[howardrichman]

I just finished a basic 200 amp service upgrade from 100 amps (PSE&G). Usual GEC bonding from main panel to copper water pipe at main, jumped water meter, water heater/gas pipe bonded and jumped out; and GEC to 2 ground rods; GEC to and cable/tel. ext. bar. Sometime After finished job, customer and I observed that when Microwave runs after several seconds- loads(lugs) down as kit lights dimm proportionately as microwave runs. No dimmer on kit. Lts. Of course customer states !st time occurance after serv. chng. I figure, Trans/Nuetral-problem before meter, or simple defect microwave oven, but why kit Lt dimm? I didn'nt have time yet to anylyze, but Homeowner haven'nt pointed problem to other sections of house or appliances. Any suggestion?
Thanks
HR

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The microwave and the kitchen lights are sharing a circuit. Maybe a multiwire branch circuit.


If that is the case, then this happened earlier than the service change.
or
There was an oversized overcurrent device on the circuit before you changed the service.

 

[S'mise]

...or, both hots from multiwire landed on same side of panel causing overloaded neutral. :-?

Might want to check ballancing

 

[LarryFine]

After finished job, customer and I observed that when Microwave runs after several seconds- loads(lugs) down as kit lights dimm proportionately as microwave runs.

Likely the microwave is on the lighting circuit, and there was just a range hood there originally.

Of course customer states !st time occurance after serv. chng.

Of course. :roll: Suspect that claim.

Any suggestion?

If they're on the same circuit, explain that's how it was before, and place a light at that circuit's breaker as a test for you and proof to them you didn't cause it.

If it dims appreciably, there could be an issue. If it doesn't, that's proof you didn't cause it, and offer to run a new circuit for the microwave, but not free.

 

[hurk27]

Hope your not running the microwave without and thing in it?

 

[growler]

Hope your not running the microwave without and thing in it?

I normally just put a bowl of water in the microwave for test like this.

 

[growler]

Likely the microwave is on the lighting circuit, and there was just a range hood there originally.

Of course. :roll: Suspect that claim.

If they're on the same circuit, explain that's how it was before, and place a light at that circuit's breaker as a test for you and proof to them you didn't cause it.

If it dims appreciably, there could be an issue. If it doesn't, that's proof you didn't cause it, and offer to run a new circuit for the microwave, but not free.

I agree with this but I also suspect a bad connection somewhere in the lighting circuit. If the light starts to dim after the microwave is on I would think that a connection is heating up and causing a greater resistance in the circuit. If the circuit is just overloaded it should trip the breaker. You get a flicker when an appliance is turned on but not a dimming effect.

It's really hard to tell without being there and seeing it first hand.
After finding out whick breaker I would put an ammeter on just to see if the circuit is really loaded down. One of those ideal sure test will give and idea of the voltage drop at the microwave receptacle and I think it will be really high after the circuit heats up.

I agree with running the new circuit for the microwave but I believe there is a possible hazard in the house ( loose connection that heats up under a load ) that should be found for safety sake if it exist.

 

[augie47]

not to forget Rule #1. No electrical deficiency was ever present until after you did your work.
I think Rule #2 is everything electrical in the house is to be covered by your lifetime warranty even if it had nothing to do with the work you performed.

 

[480sparky]

not to forget Rule #1. No electrical deficiency was ever present until after you did your work.
I think Rule #2 is everything electrical in the house is to be covered by your lifetime warranty even if it had nothing to do with the work you performed.

Are those to be considered formal declarations? So we can add Augie's Rules to Charlies Rule?

 

[augie47]

my "rules" come nowhere close to carrying the weight of Charlie's...........

 

[cadpoint]

Is this where the salemanship or better the trademanship comes in?

Besides the fact that they might need an upgrade in service, should it be reviewed why there getting an up grade,
seems obvious but then again is it?

Does anyone ever ask, is there any existing problems before we start seems logical enough?
Watch their eyes...

I like Augie's Rule, (Statement) Chain of thought!

 

[bradleyelectric]

Is this where the salemanship or better the trademanship comes in?

Besides the fact that they might need an upgrade in service, should it be reviewed why there getting an up grade,
seems obvious but then again is it?

Does anyone ever ask, is there any existing problems before we start seems logical enough?
Watch their eyes...

I like Gus's Rule, (Statement) Chain of thought!

I'd like it better if we called them Augie's rules.

 

[growler]

Does anyone ever ask, is there any existing problems before we start seems logical enough?

Yes always ask about existing problems ( fishing for more money) and state verbally and in the contract that a service change does not cover any thing other than the service change and any other problems will be billed seperately.

You only need to do one or two service changes to figure this out.

 

[satcom]

Is this where the salemanship or better the trademanship comes in?

Besides the fact that they might need an upgrade in service, should it be reviewed why there getting an up grade,
seems obvious but then again is it?

Does anyone ever ask, is there any existing problems before we start seems logical enough?
Watch their eyes...

I like Augie's Rule, (Statement) Chain of thought!

Yes, there should be a complete review of the system, we have operated this way ever since I can remember, and not just to understand the job conditions, but also use this information to sell the customer needed repairs, and any additional work that will result in a much improved electrical system.

I had more then one EC tell me, if I recommend more then just the service, I will loose the service job, that shows the need in this industry, to improve business skills and provide better overall service.

 

[480sparky]

my "rules" come nowhere close to carrying the weight of Charlie's...........

We can change that. All we need to do is repeat it enough.

 

[cadpoint]

Yes, Yes, it should well be a process that is part of a procedure.

I just seems lately that quite a few opps have shown up lately here with the panel work.

There's seems to be a lot of billable work attribuable to this application, but that either one is not doing or got nabbed by it ....

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

I had a problem similar the other day. When the microwave was turned on Voltage would go down to 104 and that would register on that phase in the meter main combination. On the opposing phase it was 128 this only happened under load with microwave iron high draw appliance I bypassed the interior wiring and tried to see if i got the same results at the panel hooking up a load at the panel directly same problem. This lead me to believe that the problem was on poccos side maybe a neutral problem.

 

[220/221]

This lead me to believe that the problem was on poccos side maybe a neutral problem.

That would be a logical conclusion in your case.

 

[howardrichman]

Well; when I go back ; It'll be to collect a check after inspection, and at that time I'll check if lights on same circuit w/ that plug, and if multi feeders on same phase. Could be just a defective MW oven. I did notice when pulling and marking out old breakers that a 20A breaker was on a 14gu wire,(may not be related to circuit in question) and changed out to a 15, but i would think an overload wouldn't cause E-drop, but just trip out. I'll move MW oven to other circuit or phase if still persists, I'll call PSE&G, and they'll have to put on a (demend guage?) over meter to isolate problem.
Thanks for all your replies;
HR

 

[LarryFine]

I did notice when pulling and marking out old breakers that a 20A breaker was on a 14gu wire,(may not be related to circuit in question) and changed out to a 15, but i would think an overload wouldn't cause E-drop, but just trip out.

That's probably exactly why it was a 20a breaker; the 15a was tripping. That the wire is #14 would contribute to voltage drop.