Upcoming mandatory stoppage of all natural gas appliances in houses.

garbo

Senior Member
Read that parts of California & New York will not allow any natural gas appliances in about 15 or 20 years in new construction then down the road make all houses get rid of natural gas. In my city they may have 20 to 40 row homes on a 75 KVA transformer. So if these houses have to go to electric heat water heater cooking and EV do you think that any if the ultility companies would be capable of increasing their power distribution at least 3 fold to handle this.I'm thinking that average row house might require a 300 amp service if home owners wanted to heat home run electric dryer cook and charge EV at same time.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Interesting. NY has had big push to get Fracking for gas here inspite of the water pollution the process makes, but then in the next breath want to ban use of the gas they are pushing to produce. o_O
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Read that parts of California & New York will not allow any natural gas appliances in about 15 or 20 years in new construction then down the road make all houses get rid of natural gas. In my city they may have 20 to 40 row homes on a 75 KVA transformer. So if these houses have to go to electric heat water heater cooking and EV do you think that any if the ultility companies would be capable of increasing their power distribution at least 3 fold to handle this.I'm thinking that average row house might require a 300 amp service if home owners wanted to heat home run electric dryer cook and charge EV at same time.
You have identified a harsh reality that some fantasists do not want to face. Now add 100% wind and solar, and battery capacity to carry you a week or so, and consider what your cost per kW-hr is likely to be.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
Interesting. NY has had big push to get Fracking for gas here inspite of the water pollution the process makes, but then in the next breath want to ban use of the gas they are pushing to produce. o_O
Uhhhh, no. Fracking takes place about 5,000 feet below the water table. It does not cause issues with drinking water. The fracking mixtures (90% water, 9.5% sand, 0.5% chemical additives) are recycled, and anything that isn't can be treated easily enough. You have higher concentrations of surfactants in your shampoo.
 
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wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
You have identified a harsh reality that some fantasists do not want to face. Now add 100% wind and solar, and battery capacity to carry you a week or so, and consider what your cost per kW-hr is likely to be.
Good question. Now compare that to the costs we've already seen from 1°C warming, and the expected costs of business as usual with 2°C or more of warming.

Fracking takes place about 5,000 feet below the water table.
And do you want to tell me that the rock at the water table depth is always protected from the pressures used and that fracking never fractures rock in the vicinity of the water table?

Cheers, Wayne
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Huh? Last I checked NYS banned fracking.
Not total ban, just moratorium (delayed). I've seen the Pennsylvania trucks hauling waste fracking fluid into state and dumping to pre contaminate the water so that the excuse for not fracking will appear non valid. I lived in an area that had the water table contaminated by the simple road salt storage at the township facility that leached into the ground water and contaminated several wells in the area. The town was forced to plumb in the village water to all the houses around it. So I have no doubt that the same will occur with fracking fluid being dumped in quantity on road or prolonged dumping of it to de-ice.



 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
Nothing to do with earthquakes, it's all about burning fossil fuels

More specifically when appliances use natural gas:
1. The combustion may produce more CO2 per unit of useful heat than electrical energy produced at an efficient power plant.
2. Even less fossil fuel burned per unit of useful heat if a heat pump is used.
3. There is a chance that in the future renewable energy will become more practical and displace fossil fuel dependent generation. Use of natural gas by the end user precludes that.

Use of LPG for appliances is more nuanced because there will always be off-grid uses. I am not sure how different jurisdictions treat LPG.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
Interesting. NY has had big push to get Fracking for gas here inspite of the water pollution the process makes, but then in the next breath want to ban use of the gas they are pushing to produce.

Seems NY can't get the supply of NG they need to keep up with the demand (read politics) so the POCOs placed a moratorium on new installations and expansion of the NG systems. There was supposed to be a new supply line built from (I think Canada) that would have to cross the Hudson River at some point that made the environmentalists have a fit. So no pipeline. The lack of adequate NG is actually restricting new construction. I see some residential construction having to use use propane or oil. Hopefully when nothing gets built the politicians will have to change their tune.

-Hal
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Occupation
Field coordinator/ technical support
Seems NY can't get the supply of NG they need to keep up with the demand (read politics) so the POCOs placed a moratorium on new installations and expansion of the NG systems. There was supposed to be a new supply line built from (I think Canada) that would have to cross the Hudson River at some point that made the environmentalists have a fit. So no pipeline. The lack of adequate NG is actually restricting new construction. I see some residential construction having to use use propane or oil. Hopefully when nothing gets built the politicians will have to change their tune.

-Hal
Go solar! LOL! The homeowner would get plenty of exercise cleaning the snow off the panels in the winter! Obesity and clean energy solved at the same time! LOL!
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
Go solar! LOL! The homeowner would get plenty of exercise cleaning the snow off the panels in the winter! Obesity and clean energy solved at the same time! LOL!
That comment makes me wonder is there a risk of shock if raking snow off with the metal roof rake and it breakes the panel surface?
 

mopowr steve

Senior Member
Location
NW Ohio
Occupation
Electrical contractor
I fear eventually even air conditioning will be outlawed, just thinking of all the btuh’s pumped out of condenser units all over the land.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
I fear eventually even air conditioning will be outlawed, just thinking of all the btuh’s pumped out of condenser units all over the land.

Ground sourced heat pumps (and A/C) is being installed in some instances but I suspect the cost is realistic for only the more expensive homes. Then of course, if that became popular there will be environmentalists who will be saying that it will be warming the earth from within...

Solar will help with the A/C but do little for heat. Nobody want's to heat with electric.

-Hal
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
I don't see how this will be possible. NYC will go from a 13,200MW peak load to 60,000MW peak load. Can't happen IMO.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
More specifically when appliances use natural gas:
1. The combustion may produce more CO2 per unit of useful heat than electrical energy produced at an efficient power plant.
2. Even less fossil fuel burned per unit of useful heat if a heat pump is used.
3. There is a chance that in the future renewable energy will become more practical and displace fossil fuel dependent generation. Use of natural gas by the end user precludes that.

Use of LPG for appliances is more nuanced because there will always be off-grid uses. I am not sure how different jurisdictions treat LPG.

Co-generation can be up to 97% efficient.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Nobody want's to heat with electric.
Heat pumps are viable and at least economically competitive in most US climates, including most/all of New York. But it's comparatively new technology, and if everyone decided to switch to heat pumps today, there wouldn't be enough qualified installers, product available, etc. So it will take time for market penetration to increase.

Cheers, Wayne
 

oldsparky52

Senior Member
Ground sourced heat pumps (and A/C) is being installed in some instances but I suspect the cost is realistic for only the more expensive homes. Then of course, if that became popular there will be environmentalists who will be saying that it will be warming the earth from within...
and that would be accurate.

The question I have is why is it a bad thing? It's just heat transfer, right? Earth will give it up later.

Oh yea, then in the winter you will transfer heat from the earth to the house. :)
 
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