Upgrade (replace) a bolt-on-lug sub-panel

[Hamberg]

Short version...

Need to upgrade a bolt-on-lug sub-panel and would like to know if there is any reason (code wise? NEC 2014 in our area) not to replace it with a breaker sub panel?

Currently the sub panel is directly adjacent to the main (I have pics) and I can see why they didn't use a breaker panel, but in my (feeble) mind a breaker panel would add an extra level of safety (in that it would allow that whole "zone" to be shut down, from that panel - which I know is the exact same as flipping the sub breaker in the main panel)

 

[growler]

Short version...

Need to upgrade a bolt-on-lug sub-panel and would like to know if there is any reason (code wise? NEC 2014 in our area) not to replace it with a breaker sub panel?

Instead of a main lug sub panel you can use a main breaker in the sub panel if you want to.

The reason most people don't is a little extra cost and another part that can possibly have problems latter on.

 

[petersonra]

Short version...

Need to upgrade a bolt-on-lug sub-panel and would like to know if there is any reason (code wise? NEC 2014 in our area) not to replace it with a breaker sub panel?

Currently the sub panel is directly adjacent to the main (I have pics) and I can see why they didn't use a breaker panel, but in my (feeble) mind a breaker panel would add an extra level of safety (in that it would allow that whole "zone" to be shut down, from that panel - which I know is the exact same as flipping the sub breaker in the main panel)

It may be more cost effective to go with a MCB panel over a MLO panel. I don't think it makes any real difference in your case. These days get what is available.

 

[Hamberg]

Can I get a logic check??

sub-panel (MLO) pictured was added 10 years ago when we had an addition built. That panel is full with one tandem breaker, the main breaker panel has 3 double taps I need to fix and I need to add a sub-panel in the garage for light/outlet circuits and a 60amp heater, plus we are adding a shed that'll need a sub-panel as well (30 amp).

My thought was to replace the pictured sub with a (+/-??) 125 amp, 30+ circuit panel, move as many single breaker circuits as I can from the original main and run the sub-panel(s) and 240v circuits from the main.

Besides the layout are there any balancing issues I need to consider?

https://flic.kr/p/2mJNT6e

https://flic.kr/p/2mJNT2g

https://flic.kr/p/2mJEdWM

https://flic.kr/p/2mJMMdd

https://flic.kr/p/2mJJkLz

 

[tom baker]

There are some violations you will want to clear up. White wire as hot, 2 neutrals under one ground screw. Double tap on CB maybe ok depends on breaker listing

 

[suemarkp]

I'd pick a family and stay with it (looks like Eaton BR subpanel and Eaton CH main). I put a 225 MLO panel next to my main panel because the smaller 125A ones typically stopped at 24/48 slots. I wouldn't waste money on a main breaker panel if the main panel is adjacent unless you get some residential bundle pack that makes it just as cheap. Consider a plug on neutral (PON) sub if this is a residence and you need a bunch of AFCI's. And since AFCI and GFCI breakers don't come as twins from most manufacturers, you have to use the lower circuit count (e.g. 32 circuits in a 32/64 panel -- but you'll get more neutral holes). I've heard older GFCIs can be an issue in the PON panels. They may have newer GFCIs now that are PON. Especially watch the 2 poles, as many of those need to be GFCI now if you are under the 2020 code.

I think the subpanel shown also has a bonding issue. It looks like whoever installed it thought the left bar could be a ground only bar, but I think it has a hard connection with that flat bar from the left bar to the right bar. The main bonding jumper should have been removed and separate ground bar installed below the neutral bars. I can't tell if they ran an equipment ground with the feeder or not.

 

[Hamberg]

There are some violations you will want to clear up. White wire as hot, 2 neutrals under one ground screw. Double tap on CB maybe ok depends on breaker listing

Thanks @tom baker - we will get those fixed with the new (expanded) sub. I see @suemarkp is saying to stay with CH but we were looking to use the Schneider QO QO124L125PQGCVP (125/24/34) or QO142M200PQCVP (200/42/52) panel. Both are PoN, and have the qwik-grip feature which would be a (huge) time saver on the swap. Any reason "NOT" to use - other than the new breaker investment?

 

[suemarkp]

To me, eaton CH and square D QO are both good choices. Eaton BR and Square D Homeline are both down a notch. I suggested the CH because it sounded like that panel wasnt being changed but you were moving circuits. But if most breakers need to be replaces because of AFCI or GFCI needs, then maybe you cant leverage much from either panel.

 

[Hamberg]

To me, eaton CH and square D QO are both good choices. Eaton BR and Square D Homeline are both down a notch. I suggested the CH because it sounded like that panel wasnt being changed but you were moving circuits. But if most breakers need to be replaces because of AFCI or GFCI needs, then maybe you cant leverage much from either panel.

Yes, the CH (125) on the left is full (actually both are) so I was going to upgrade that one with the qwik-grip SQ-D version. (original question) also asked if it made sense to move the single circuits over to the new 125 panel and keep the sub-panel and 240's over over on the main breaker? My thought was it would allow me to put in (dual) AFCI/CFCI's for the BR's, baths, kitchen, etc. while I was replacing. (side note: PA is only at NEC 2014 and what we have now would pass (minus the 2x-taps)

 

[Hamberg]

I think the subpanel shown also has a bonding issue. It looks like whoever installed it thought the left bar could be a ground only bar, but I think it has a hard connection with that flat bar from the left bar to the right bar. The main bonding jumper should have been removed and separate ground bar installed below the neutral bars. I can't tell if they ran an equipment ground with the feeder or not.

Pretty sure it's isolated but take a look and let me know your thoughts!?

https://flic.kr/p/2mK6Rhj

https://flic.kr/p/2mK4Lga

https://flic.kr/p/2mJNT2g

 

[suemarkp]

Looks like someone cut the interconnecting cross bar. I think there are so many double lugged neutrals is because they trashed one of the neutral bars. The intent in that type of panel is to have a neutral on both sides and add a GBK ground bar or two if its a subpanel.

 

[Fred B]

Thanks @tom baker - we will get those fixed with the new (expanded) sub. I see @suemarkp is saying to stay with CH but we were looking to use the Schneider QO QO124L125PQGCVP (125/24/34) or QO142M200PQCVP (200/42/52) panel. Both are PoN, and have the qwik-grip feature which would be a (huge) time saver on the swap. Any reason "NOT" to use - other than the new breaker investment?

My only thought is the SD either QO or HOM the AFCI and GFCI breakers eat up a lot of gutter space compared to Eaton BR, Siemens, or Leviton. Siemens is also offering tandem AFCI breakers that the others are not.

 

[Hamberg]

Looks like someone cut the interconnecting cross bar. I think there are so many double lugged neutrals is because they trashed one of the neutral bars. The intent in that type of panel is to have a neutral on both sides and add a GBK ground bar or two if its a subpanel.

Exactly! Moot point as that one is getting replaced.

 

[Hamberg]

My only thought is the SD either QO or HOM the AFCI and GFCI breakers eat up a lot of gutter space compared to Eaton BR, Siemens, or Leviton. Siemens is also offering tandem AFCI breakers that the others are not.

Have you used any of the SQD's with qwik-grip? Has to be a huge time saver? Also was considering one of the Leviton panels but the cost was a factor, however the wired rough-in without breakers is a cool concept!

 

[Fred B]

Have you used any of the SQD's with qwik-grip? Has to be a huge time saver? Also was considering one of the Leviton panels but the cost was a factor, however the wired rough-in without breakers is a cool concept!

Haven't used any, I've only heard bad things from others around here that have, wires not staying put, qwik grips breaking, not enough room for all the cables that panel has for breaker spaces available. (Just from what others have said.) Saved time until they had all the issues, they said they'd never use again.