Used as a Neutral.....

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1793

1793

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Location
Louisville, Kentucky
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Inspector
I would like to know if someone would point me in the right direction to support my position.

I have a main panel can, cabinet etc. as a neutral connection for feeding a sub-panel, which is wrong.

I cannot seem to find the specific code reference. :happysad::happysad:

Thanks.
 
? You have a main breaker panel and it is the first means of disconnect with the neutral and grounding wires all on the neutral bar and it is bonded to the metal enclosure?
You would like to subfeed to an other panel/ disconnect with 2 hots 1 neut. 1 gnd. and keep the neutral insulated and separated from the gnd in the subfeed enclosure?
 
Sounds like he's saying that the main enclosure is part of the neutral current's pathway, which is a no-no.
 
No

There is a main panel, all is good wired correctly.

A sub-panel was added and the installer attached the neutral to the can or cabinet of the main panel instead of attaching it to the neutral bar of the main panel.

i know this wrong, just looking for supporting evidence.
 
1793 said:
No

There is a main panel, all is good wired correctly.

A sub-panel was added and the installer attached the neutral to the can or cabinet of the main panel instead of attaching it to the neutral bar of the main panel.

i know this wrong, just looking for supporting evidence.
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IMO, Nothing wrong with that, it looks like you bonded the neutral at main panel directly without jumper, i think it's ok but seems odd.
 
In other words, the sub-panel's EGC can connect to the main panel's enclosure or EGC bar, but the neutral must connect to the main panel's neutral bar.
 
jumper said:
200.2(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.
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Just thought, if we bond the GEC directly to the grounded wire i think the continous path is ok !!!
 
m sleem said:
Just thought, if we bond the GEC directly to the grounded wire i think the continous path is ok !!!
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Are you talking about a main bonding jumper of the wire type, not sure how a grounding electrode conductor was mentioned in the thread, but since you brought it up at the main service panel. A grounding electrode conductor cannot land on a lug bolted to the metal cabinet to make the bond to the grounded conductor either

You would need something like a double barreled lug to land on with a wire type Main bonding jumper bonding to the neutral buss with a direct bond to the service neutral

Since in the OP'S situation the neutral at the main panel supplying the sub feeder is trimmed and landed to the cabinet a double barrel lug might be used to extend the neutral from the double barrel to the nuetral buss, check your authority in your area
 
david said:
Since in the OP'S situation the neutral at the main panel supplying the sub feeder is trimmed and landed to the cabinet a double barrel lug might be used to extend the neutral from the double barrel to the nuetral buss, check your authority in your area
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If he had room on the main panel's neutral bar to do that, he would of probably landed the subpanel neutral on the Main Panel's neutral bar to begin with.


JAP>
 
jap said:
If he had room on the main panel's neutral bar to do that, he would of probably landed the subpanel neutral on the Main Panel's neutral bar to begin with.


JAP>
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i have seen to many sub-feed installs that the installer mixed up the nuetral and equipment ground even when the wiring was SER cable.

Can only go by what the OP posted with out getting into all the possibilities
 
jumper said:
200.2(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.
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200.2(B) Talks about the continuity of a "grounded conductor". As in Providing The Ground.

The output of the power company's transformer, provides a pair of opposing hots with a center tap; The Neutral. The power company provides NO GROUND CONNECTIONS OR GROUND WIRES TO THE CUSTOMER.

When the Service enters the the meter sequence, or equivalent gear, WE add the ground by directly connecting our ground rod system to the Utility Neutral.

NONE of that connection can utilize the case, pipe, raceway or armor to provide that ground path.

When I pull from the Meter to a panel, I also pull the ground to the PANEL's Ground Bus. And Also a Neutral to the neutral bus, plus the hots to each Main Bus... The GROUND BUS in the panel is already tied to ground out of the box. The neutral bus tie screw is just "ONE LAST attempt" to tie our neutral down to GROUND at our entry...

Think of your Ground as ALWAYS GROUND, and Neutral is ALWAYS NEUTRAL and never the twain shall exchange themselves. EVEN THOUGH we're bonded as things come into the building.

NOW, if you connect your neutral wire heading off to the sub panel to your ground BUS or The cabinet itself you are Making ground carry current. Ground is only a safety device and connecting everything metal to ground just keeps everything at the same potential...

Ground should never carry current. That's why the three conductors on a "220-221 whatever it takes" line are two hots and an equipment ground. Say you have an outlet on your range, you need to have a white providing the return path for that 120 circuit... Ground doesn't carry current.

Well even though the cabinet is BONDED, that isn't to provide a current path, it is there to provide a safety path. By connecting the sub's neutral not to the neutral bus but the cabinet you are asking that bonding screw plus everything else metal in your building to carry the sub panel's return current. It was never designed for that.

Hope that helps, My mentor explained that one to me back in 87 when I started all of this.

Sincerely,

Erika (GizmoGirl)
 
I confronted the EC today and he said that was a temporary solution until he could get the appropriate lug to mount onto the main panel neutral bar.

Thanks to all who have posted. :):):)
 
Welcome to the forum, Erika!

GizmoGirl said:
200.2(B) Talks about the continuity of a "grounded conductor". As in Providing The Ground.
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Actually, that's Providing the Neutral. You're talking about the grounding electrode conductor(s).

The output of the power company's transformer, provides a pair of opposing hots with a center tap; The Neutral. The power company provides NO GROUND CONNECTIONS OR GROUND WIRES TO THE CUSTOMER.

When the Service enters the the meter sequence, or equivalent gear, WE add the ground by directly connecting our ground rod system to the Utility Neutral.

NONE of that connection can utilize the case, pipe, raceway or armor to provide that ground path.
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The neutral path, not the ground path. The neutral current pathway must be a conductor or bus, not an enclosure or fittings.

When I pull from the Meter to a panel, I also pull the ground to the PANEL's Ground Bus. And Also a Neutral to the neutral bus, plus the hots to each Main Bus...
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There should be no grounding conductor from the meter to the main disconnect.

The GROUND BUS in the panel is already tied to ground out of the box. The neutral bus tie screw is just "ONE LAST attempt" to tie our neutral down to GROUND at our entry...
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There should only be one intentional connection between the neutral and each of the grounding-electrode and the equipment-grounding systems, not "multiple attempts" at grounding it.

It's more accurate to say that the premises equipment grounding system begins where the neutral is bonded to and earthed. The service equipment is directly bonded to the supply neutral up to that point.


Nothing personal, it's just that we're sticklers for accuracy here. We've even had long discussions about having long discussions. It seems the simpler the question, the more complicated the answer.
 
1793 said:
I confronted the EC today and he said that was a temporary solution until he could get the appropriate lug to mount onto the main panel neutral bar.
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Well, okay this time, but don't let it happen again. :rant: (;))
 
1793 said:
I confronted the EC today and he said that was a temporary solution until he could get the appropriate lug to mount onto the main panel neutral bar.

Thanks to all who have posted. :):):)
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You are still relying on maybe just one screw into cabinet to carry neutral current. A wire jumper (even if smaller than the conductor to be landed) kind of assures you don't end up with "open neutral" issues, but at same time should only be used temporarily.
 
1793 said:
I confronted the EC today and he said that was a temporary solution until he could get the appropriate lug to mount onto the main panel neutral bar.

Thanks to all who have posted. :):):)
Click to expand...

And there you go.

But even at that,this temporary solution should have only been left in play for as long as it would take to get to the supply house and back.

Sound like he was either rushed to get the subpanel energized and did what he could, or, he simply didn't know any better.

Regardless,don't let this temporary solution turn into a permanent problem.

Get it corrected.

JAP>
 
jap said:
And there you go.

But even at that,this temporary solution should have only been left in play for as long as it would take to get to the supply house and back.

Sound like he was either rushed to get the subpanel energized and did what he could, or, he simply didn't know any better.

Regardless,don't let this temporary solution turn into a permanent problem.

Get it corrected.

JAP>
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Some of us work in places where the supply house is 100+ miles away and you do what you have to do until you can come back with correct parts.
 
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