Using floor receptacle on an Island

[drekosh]

I have found some beautiful pop up floor receptacles manufactored by Lew Electric (Lew PUFP). These would be great for putting directly into the middle of an island except that our local inspector has said that they are UL approved for floor use not Island use, so he will not allow them. This doesn't make any sense to me. Can anyone explain why they shouldn't be used or is this one of those silly decisions that has not real safety concern.

If I mounted the receptacles so that their horizontal surcase was inches higher than the island surface in a little box of their own, would that meet code?

Here is a URl showing the receptacle:

http://www.apluselect.com/lew-floor-boxes/pufp.htm

 

[iwire]

Can anyone explain why they shouldn't be used or is this one of those silly decisions that has not real safety concern.

The inspector does not have a choice if he follows the NEC.

Presumably these are listed as 'floor receptacles'

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.

(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

 

[480sparky]

He might be able to throw 406.4(E) at you as well.

 

[George Stolz]

He might be able to throw 406.4(E) at you as well.

I don't think this receptacle is "face up".

I do think 314.15(A) could be reasonably enforced, however. The merry slinging of wet substances around kitchen countertops has brought about the requirement for all receptacles to be GFI protected, so it's reasonable to carry that "wet" classification over for the outlet boxes that would be mounted in the countertop, IMO.

 

[480sparky]

I do think 314.15(A) could be reasonably enforced, however. The merry slinging of wet substances around kitchen countertops has brought about the requirement for all receptacles to be GFI protected, so it's reasonable to carry that "wet" classification over for the outlet boxes that would be mounted in the countertop, IMO.

I've never heard of a kitchen countertop being classified as 'wet,' expecially when you read the NEC definition. If it were, we'd have in-use covers on all the receps.

 

[George Stolz]

I don't think it's cut and dried, but I do believe it could be reasonably enforced.

 

[iwire]

I've never heard of a kitchen countertop being classified as 'wet,' expecially when you read the NEC definition. If it were, we'd have in-use covers on all the receps.

Forgive George, his eyes are still blurry from reading the entire 'Mod Thread' :grin:

 

[infinity]

Personally I see no difference in mounting this receptacle in either a counter top or floor. Either location will be exposed to the same things (cleaning, spills, etc.). IMO the counter top receptacle would get less abuse than one mounted in the floor. The real issue is with the listing of the product. If it's only listed as a floor device than I agree with the inspector even though from common sense perspective I see no reason why it wouldn't be suited for the counter top.

 

[iwire]

I don't think it's cut and dried, but I do believe it could be reasonably enforced.

Wow!

No appliances allowed on the counter tops as they will be for dry locations only.

 

[normbac]

The problem might be the application of the j box to the stud, also better check depth of box for 2x4 wall. As far as floor outlets go those are awsome for custom homes, will definetley use them.

 

[cadpoint]

Would adding the wording by the manufacture stating "Surface mounted" and or "Floor Mounted" get by the inspector eyes. I think I'd rather have a sharp looking box like George displayed than having a cord hanging over the side of the counter. ! ?

 

[George Stolz]

I figured I'd take some heat for posting that.

Let's look at the sections in question:

406.4(E) Receptacles in Countertops and Similar Work Surfaces in Dwelling Units. Receptacles shall not be installed in a face-up position in countertops or similar work surfaces.

314.15(A) Damp or Wet Locations. In damp or wet locations, boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings shall be placed or equipped so as to prevent moisture from entering or accumulating within the box, conduit body, or fitting. Boxes, conduit bodies, and fittings installed in wet locations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

314.27(C) Floor Boxes. Boxes listed specifically for this application shall be used for receptacles located in the floor.

Exception: Where the authority having jurisdiction judges them free from likely exposure to physical damage, moisture, and dirt, boxes located in elevated floors of show windows and similar locations shall be permitted to be other than those listed for floor applications. Receptacles and covers shall be listed as an assembly for this type of location.

As I see it, the purpose of these sections is similar - to prevent water and gunk from filling the holes in a receptacle, or the interior of an outlet box.

406.4(E) seems to state to me that they consider countertop surfaces in a wet, damp, or dry location to be prone to being filled with water and gunk.
314.27(C) seems to state to me that the reason for the floor box requirement in floors is because they consider those devices to be prone to being filled with water and gunk.

So do those that call me crazy ( ) feel that we only need to worry about boxes filling up with gunk and water in locations where the entire room is damp or wet, or is it reasonable to assume that the surface of the countertop is going to be exposed to water and gunk and therefore 314.15(A) applies?

Here's another point I'd like to bring up: 314.27(C) requires boxes installed in the floor to be listed for the use - but there is not an inverse requirement for not installing floor receptacles in a wall. There is no prohibition in the floor receptacle's listing that states the box can only be used in a floor. It's listed for floor use because the NEC requires it to be, not so as to bar it's use in other locations.

From the UL White Book, page 192 (pdf page 230):
FLOOR BOXES
Boxes for use with floors have been investigated for use with electrical receptacles fabricated of melamine, phenolic or urea materials, unless specified otherwise in the installation instructions and Classification information. Floor boxes and fittings are intended to be installed in accordance with installation instructions provided with the product.

Boxes with integral connectors for electric metallic tubing or for unthreaded rigid metallic conduit are provided with a marking on the carton to indicate the specific type or types of wiring system for which the box has been tested.

Floor boxes designated for floor installation as covered in the NEC are provided with covers and gaskets to exclude surface water and sweeping compounds that might be present in floor cleaning operations. Those boxes, intended for installation in concrete floors, are frequently provided with leveling screws, threaded hubs, or both and are provided with a marking on the carton to identify boxes of this type such as ‘‘Floor Box’’ or ‘‘Floor Box, Concrete Tight’’ as appropriate.

If I covered my walls with tongue and groove flooring, and installed the receptacle in the wall, is there a listing violation? If I wired my home to Class I standards, am I not perfectly compliant in doing so, if not a little eccentric?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I really do not see this as being as simple as everybody appears to be making it out to be.

 

[cadpoint]

...
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I really do not see this as being as simple as everybody appears to be making it out to be.

Not at all George, I beleive its just another situation where Odd applications of a device gets into the "Code", and usually not to the installers favor.

Thanks for the Information.

 

[mxslick]

Counters and floors are cleaned at different intervals..

Counters and floors are cleaned at different intervals..

Since counters are usually cleaned a lot more frequently than floors are, I can see the inspector's point here. And consider food prep and daily use in your own home..take a count of how many spills happen on the counters and how many happen on the floor in areas (like near the walls) where receptacles are likely to be mounted.

So as great as the concept is, I agree 100% with the inspector here...ANY surface mounted receptacle on the top is a very bad idea.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here's another point I'd like to bring up: 314.27(C) requires boxes installed in the floor to be listed for the use - but there is not an inverse requirement for not installing floor receptacles in a wall. There is no prohibition in the floor receptacle's listing that states the box can only be used in a floor. It's listed for floor use because the NEC requires it to be, not so as to bar it's use in other locations.

I am with you on this George but I can see an inspector using art.210.52 (C)(5) exc. to (5)(2). Nowhere here does it allow a receptacle on the counter. If we invoke Charlie's rule I think you could not make the install legally.

Sounds like a situation for a change in the code.

 

[iwire]

No offense meant guys but I think you are crazy.

I will not be convinced that a counter top in a residential kitchen is a 'wet location'.

It simply is not and 406.4(E) does not in the least way imply that it is a wet location.

As far as we know they are worried about cookie crumbs filling the receptacle.

Another issue is the room itself.

Is there a floor drain?

Is the floor pitched?

Are the building methods of the kitchen area the type that could be used in wet locations?

These are just a few of the areas that would have to meet building codes for interior wet locations.

Until the building code calls interior residential kitchens a 'wet locations' I will choose not to call it one for the purposes of the NEC.

I can't imagine the size of the in-use cover you guys would have me putting over my wifes mixer.

 

[480sparky]

Until the building code calls interior residential kitchens a 'wet locations' I will choose not to call it one for the purposes of the NEC.

I can see it now:

 

[iwire]

I can see it now:

You forgot the in-use bubble cover the range will need. :grin:

 

[mxslick]

480 and Bob:

ROFL!!! That's rich!!

 

[mthead]

Using floor receptacle on an Island

There are recpts avail now for use on kitch countertops-they are ul listed for said use and they disappear back into the counter when not in use[I don't work for the company that makes them but I believe they provide a solution tfor many electricians attempting to meet code requirements and still keep the h/owner happy in todays high end kithchen applications].
I believe I was first turned onto them by an earlier forum thread--company is "MOCKETTS SPROCKETTS".
They pop up from the counter and are gasket sealed to keep moisture frome getting into the device.
p.s.-they are not cheap--