Using "Neutral Bus" as Equipment Grounding Bus

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Dennis Alwon said:
Dave, If you have two ungrounded conductors and a grounding conductor then you can use the neutral bar as long as it is bonded to the panel. The neutral bar will no longer be a neutral bar but an equipment grounding bar. There is nowhere in the code that requires a neutral (grounded conductor) to be present in a panel past the main service. Just label the panel 240 volts Only- No neutral present to ease your mind. I have seen an ec add a 120v circuit from a panel with no neutral. Labelling it will prevent this problem.
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Dennis, in this situation I have two "hots" and a "ground" (as it's actually downsized) in the cable that is existing. I've seen more feedback that the majority sees no issue, as long as properly labeled. My concern, and it was expressed by others, that someone come by and tries to add a 120V circuit by using the EGC to tie in the grounded conductor (neutral). Let's see what the inspector has to say. I'll post when the inspection occurs, but it won't be for a while as they keeping adding scope under the present permit.

Thanks to all those who provided feedback!

M. D. said:
Yeah ,.. and the O.P. has long since left the discussion .
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I haven't left the discussion, I've just been seeing what the feedback was.
 
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iwire said:
I guess what I am saying is that I thought this slash rating issue was more of an issue when using a high leg.
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Slash ratings cannot be used on any system where the voltage to ground exceeds the breaker rating.

While this is most common with high-leg 240/120 3Ph 4W systems is it also a problem with ungrounded and corner/phase grounded systems.
 
hillbilly said:
I personally don't see a problem with doing the way the OP suggests.

If that 3rd. (grounded) conductor was insulated, I would strip the insulation from it and change it to a grounding conductor, install the bonding screw, and call it done.

If someone makes the mistake of adding 120V circuits to that panel, they shouldn't be doing the work in the first place.
If there's no white (or gray) wire in the panel, there's no way a qualified electrician would do it.

Just my opinion
steve
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I wouldn't even bother stripping the conductor, I'd just mark it. I agree with the rest of your post Steve.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
If electrical work is being performed, and it is not by a professional who understands that it takes more effort than just doing, such as using one's experience and knowledge, then so be it. The mistake is theirs and the person who hired them.

When we go to work and have to worry about "what ifs", we might as well not go to work.




This thread is also an example of how hard it sometimes is to provide information when we do not really know the conditions of the installation.
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Or in some cases to those who think you are staying from the topic :smile:
I thought the links you added were both relevant and informative. Thanks
 
I stupidly ran a new 40 amp feeder for a HVAC circuit to a mostly empty 225 amp panel. I did not bother to open it up first, when I did open it I found the entire panel was supplied by 10 AWG and a very small transformer. Totally my fault, it did not even cross my mind that that the original installer should have labeled the panel as 30 amps
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I'm glad to hear that :smile: I did just about the same thing. Adding an AC circuit to a big panel with lots of space......I didn't even look at the #6 feeders. A few days later I was out there replacing the feeders. It was an easy fix but I felt like an idiot.
 
Green Screw

Green Screw

The only issue that I have with this discussion is about using the green screw to bond the nuetral - to be - ground bar.

I see another electrician looking at the panel and assuming that the prior electrician goofed and bonded a sub-panel. He may very well remove the screw to "make it right", leaving the circuit without a ground. Yes, he should investigate it thoroughly first and he should notice something fishy because there is no white wire, but we all miss a step here and there. Who knows, it may even be an 1st or 2nd year apprentice doing side work and all he knows is no bond in a sub-panel and how to change receptacles.

Not for a code issue, but i think the best way to perform the task as a craftsman would be to remove the isolation spacers and mount the bar to the can AND place a label on the panel stating no neutral.

I always tell guys that work for or with me to "watch out for the next guy... it might be you" or "don't screw the next guy... it might be you".

Always look out others, if not because it's the right thing to do, then because you are a professional.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
When we go to work and have to worry about "what ifs", we might as well not go to work.
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There are always "what ifs" in the trade and no one is saying I have to wire for the "what if" situation. I just think that it would be a good idea to label the panel-- I never said it was required. It can't hurt and it doesn't take much effort.
 
I've decided to "spend the customers $8.00" (actually it was under $7) and there is no way to confuse anything. I did think about the ground screw - and it's instruction tag says "use to bond the neutral bus to ground...". I could see where having the "bonding screw" in a panel could cause a few electricians to do a little head scratching.

Thanks for all that replied!
 
acrwc10 said:
Or in some cases to those who think you are staying from the topic :smile:
I thought the links you added were both relevant and informative. Thanks
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You are welcome and thanks for thinking like I do. :wink:




Dennis Alwon said:
There are always "what ifs" in the trade and no one is saying I have to wire for the "what if" situation. I just think that it would be a good idea to label the panel-- I never said it was required. It can't hurt and it doesn't take much effort.
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I was not refering to your post, I would have to go back and read what you posted to understand your point.
 
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