I have a 15 amp circuit supplying a dishwasher and a disposal. The dishwasher draws 8.1 amps and the disposal draws 3.2 amps. The inspector is calling this because he says since the dishwasher draws over half the circuit that it can't be on with the disposal. Isn't 210.23 (2) referring to circuits that also have lights, plugs, and other appliances not fastened in place? My circuit only supplies appliances that are fastened in place.
Utilization equipment fastened in place (210.23(2))
- Thread starter crtemp
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Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
I would say that the code cite is wrong. However what do the instructions say of the equipment connected?
I don't have them. That was a non issue with the inspector though.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Kindly show the inspector the code. Tell him he needs to include all the words and not to cherry pick the words he likes to make fit his point.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branchcircuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plugconnected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.
(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place.
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][/FONT][/FONT]The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branchcircuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plugconnected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.
It seems that he is wrong.
210.23 (A)(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total
rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than
luminaires, shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch circuit
ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug connected
utilization equipment not fastened in place, or
both, are also supplied.
Leespark57
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA, USA
I agree that the inspector may be misinterpreting this rule. However, I would still check the manufacturer's instructions for a possible requirement for a dedicated circuit.
The following is commentary for 210.23(A)(2) directly from the 2017 NEC Handbook.
"The requirement does not apply to a branch circuit that supplies only fastened-in-place utilization equipment. For example, on a 20-ampere branch circuit that supplies a waste disposer and a dishwasher, neither appliance is restricted to the 50 percent (10 amperes) of the branch-circuit rating. The combined load of the two appliances cannot exceed 20 amperes."
The following is commentary for 210.23(A)(2) directly from the 2017 NEC Handbook.
"The requirement does not apply to a branch circuit that supplies only fastened-in-place utilization equipment. For example, on a 20-ampere branch circuit that supplies a waste disposer and a dishwasher, neither appliance is restricted to the 50 percent (10 amperes) of the branch-circuit rating. The combined load of the two appliances cannot exceed 20 amperes."
For inspection purposes that is not what he asked for.
Even with manufacturer instructions it is will depend who interprets them.
Needs a 20A circuit
Needs a dedicated 20A circuit
Needs a individual circuit
Plug into a 20A rated receptacle
Needs a minimum 15A circuits
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I would do that, especially if you expect to have him inspect future work, he needs to learn the right thing here. Seems pretty clear to many of us that if all the loads supplied are fastened in place utilization equipment then that 50% rule doesn't apply.
Some may say it is better design to put this on a 20 amp circuit instead of a 15, but it still is code compliant , so the 20 amp suggestion is nothing more then a design decision.
I ran 12-2 for the circuit. That particular day I had just ran out of Afci/gfci combo 20 amp breakers. I just put it on a 15 amp because that's all I had and I like to use that circuit as a temp power plug for other trades to use so I had to power it up. The job was out in the middle of nowhere so going back wasn't an option. Long story short, I talked to the inspector and he wanted nothing to do with it. Didn't even want to go over it with me. So I called his boss. Neither Did he. I eventually got the code through to his boss and he reversed the tag.
Thanks guys for confirming what I thought was correct.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Does eventually getting through mean to the first supervisor or does that mean you had to go one more run up the ladder to a second supervisor? Can't appeal much higher then about two levels most places I would think, that means you need to get several trades people together to approach them if they won't listen. If that don't work bring weapons the next time
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Sounds like a that inspector and department are a real piece of work.
I know these jurisdictions have the right to interpret but get real. I aint perfect I don't have issue with someone explaining something.
Does eventually getting through mean to the first supervisor or does that mean you had to go one more run up the ladder to a second supervisor? Can't appeal much higher then about two levels most places I would think, that means you need to get several trades people together to approach them if they won't listen. If that don't work bring weapons the next time
I talked to the inspector that tagged me. Then his boss. And Then his boss.
Leespark57
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA, USA
Many (not all) dishwashers have something like this in the manufacturer's instructions:
"Electrical Requirements• This appliance must be supplied with 120V, 60 Hz., andconnected to an individual properly grounded branch circuit,protected by a 15- or 20-ampere circuit breaker or time-delayfuse."
or
"• A 120 Volt 60 Hz 15 AMP fuse or circuit breaker• An individual branch circuit serving only your dishwasher"
Clearly the inspector was incorrect, but it's the fine print in the instructions (110.3b) that can burn you on final inspection.
does anyone ever get tagged for this? How can you know what appliance the builder will end up using. In my 20 years doing this I have never seen or even heard of this happening. The manufacturer just says that to cover their ass I'm sure and avoid warranty issues. Not real world stuff I'm hoping.
Leespark57
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA, USA
Yes, it happens. Some inspectors want to have the appliance paperwork on site for the final to look for this exact thing.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I understand that is what the instructions may say, but how does that really have much impact on "the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity".
Inconvenient for the user should the breaker trip but breaker is tripping to safeguard persons and property:huh:
As mentioned those instructions aren't written for safety - they are written to try to get out of honoring warranty claims.
Inconvenient for the user should the breaker trip but breaker is tripping to safeguard persons and property:huh:
As mentioned those instructions aren't written for safety - they are written to try to get out of honoring warranty claims.
M.D.
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
The only instructions that matter are the ones that went to U.L. / testing agency . I know first hand that not all instructions are sent with the listing and labeling material. I was told if they were any change in the instructions would require U.L. Approval .
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I agree that only the ones sent to the NRTL are the instructions included in the listing.
When you open up the packaging to a new appliance and pull out the included instructions how does one know if those were submitted for listing purposes though? And even if they were, they can print about anything they want in there but the NRTL may only be looking for key items to be included and ignores any additional instructions:huh:
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