weressl
Esteemed Member
Perhaps, but do you really think it is 'engineering'?
Value Engineering
- Thread starter Alwayslearningelec
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Perhaps, but do you really think it is 'engineering'?
weressl
Esteemed Member
Wikipedia says: 'In the United States, value engineering is specifically spelled out in Public Law 104-106, which states ?Each executive agency shall establish and maintain cost-effective value engineering procedures and processes." I think it can be safely said that all jobs involving an executive Government Agency MUST be VE'dhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_engineering#cite_note-1
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
It is a design process, it just is not normally done by a professional 'engineer'
I 'engineer' (using that term rather loosly) most of what I install, but can not claim title of "PE"
In military we used to call our medics "Doc" though they were not actually doctors, I have seen people that call fat guys "Slim".
Loosen up a little
BullsnPyrs
Senior Member
- Location
- Saint Joe, Arkansas
What value engineering means changes with the role you play in the design/bid/install process. You might see it as something done in the initial design process but we see it requested by the GC late in the bid process. We work in the retrofit/energy savings industry and most of our projects are for government agencies. Typically when we see value engineering an ESCO has been awarded a project of x million dollars and comes back to us to "Value Engineer" the project to make the paybacks work better. A solution we might use is to change fixture replacements to retrofits or change the LED can retrofit to a CFL product. Delivering a similiar energy saving with a much lower install cost and increasing the net payback on that item.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
I am pretty much convinced that many times the way the spec is written it deliberately inflates the cost of the project so the PM can later take out stuff that was unneeded in the first place, or use lower cost components so that the project can come in under budget.
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
For me, "value engineering" is something that automatically happens as part of "good design."
Perhaps you want to offer the customer options. Sort of a 'good/better/best' choice.
Or, alternatives. For example, CFL fixtures vs. incandescents with dimmers.
"Value engineering" is what you do when you place receptacles where they are really needed- as opposed to spacing them exactly 12-ft. apart. Putting the fridge receptacle within reach of the fridge cord. Etc. VE does not automatically mean paying more for extras.
Another example of VE is where you use a better quality device where it is subject to more use, and an economy device where use is rare. Or, where you pay more for materials or invest in tooling, so as to reduce the time and labor required. ("I can paint the house in three days with a lift, but will need 10 days if I use ladders")
Think of 'value engineering' as trying to get the most bang for the buck. The most VALUE for the dollar. Not the fewest amount of dollars, but a greater value. It's like applying the 'buy in bulk' principle to our business. For example .... could you reduce your price if the customer made weekly payments during the course of the job? Does scheduling matter?
Perhaps you want to offer the customer options. Sort of a 'good/better/best' choice.
Or, alternatives. For example, CFL fixtures vs. incandescents with dimmers.
"Value engineering" is what you do when you place receptacles where they are really needed- as opposed to spacing them exactly 12-ft. apart. Putting the fridge receptacle within reach of the fridge cord. Etc. VE does not automatically mean paying more for extras.
Another example of VE is where you use a better quality device where it is subject to more use, and an economy device where use is rare. Or, where you pay more for materials or invest in tooling, so as to reduce the time and labor required. ("I can paint the house in three days with a lift, but will need 10 days if I use ladders")
Think of 'value engineering' as trying to get the most bang for the buck. The most VALUE for the dollar. Not the fewest amount of dollars, but a greater value. It's like applying the 'buy in bulk' principle to our business. For example .... could you reduce your price if the customer made weekly payments during the course of the job? Does scheduling matter?
weressl
Esteemed Member
It's a bit long, but worth it....
It's a bit long, but worth it....
Value engineering at its best:
A toothpaste factory had a problem: they sometimes shipped empty boxes, without the tube inside. This was due to the way the production line was set up, and people with experience in designing production lines will tell you how difficult it is to have everything happen with timing so precise that every single unit coming out of it is perfect 100% of the time. Small variations in the environment (which can?t be controlled in a cost-effective fashion) mean you must have quality assurance checks smartly distributed across the line so that customers all the way down to the supermarket don?t get ticked-off and buy another product instead.
Understanding how important that was, the CEO of the toothpaste factory got the top people in the company together and they decided to start a new project, in which they would hire an external engineering company to solve their empty boxes problem, as their engineering department was already too stretched to take on any extra effort.
The project followed the usual process: budget and project sponsor allocated, RFP, third-parties selected, and six months (and $8 million) later they had a fantastic solution ? on time, on budget, high quality and everyone in the project had a great time. They solved the problem by using high-tech precision scales that would sound a bell and flash lights whenever a toothpaste box would weigh less than it should. The line would stop, and someone had to walk over and yank the defective box out of it, pressing another button when done to re-start the line.
A while later, the CEO decides to have a look at the ROI of the project: amazing results! No empty boxes ever shipped out of the factory after the scales were put in place. Very few customer complaints, and they were gaining market share. ?That?s some money well spent!? ? he says, before looking closely at the other statistics in the report.
It turns out, the number of defects picked up by the scales was 0, after three weeks of production use. It should?ve been picking up at least a dozen a day, so maybe there was something wrong with the report. He launched an investigation, and after some work, the engineers come back saying the report was actually correct. The scales really weren't picking up any defects, because all boxes that got to that point in the conveyor belt were good.
Puzzled, the CEO traveled down to the factory, and walked up to the part of the line where the precision scales were installed.
A few feet before the scale, there was a $20 desk fan, blowing any empty boxes off of the belt and into a bin.
?Oh, that,? says one of the workers ? ?one of the guys put it there ?cause he was tired of walking over every time the bell rang.
It's a bit long, but worth it....
Value engineering at its best:
A toothpaste factory had a problem: they sometimes shipped empty boxes, without the tube inside. This was due to the way the production line was set up, and people with experience in designing production lines will tell you how difficult it is to have everything happen with timing so precise that every single unit coming out of it is perfect 100% of the time. Small variations in the environment (which can?t be controlled in a cost-effective fashion) mean you must have quality assurance checks smartly distributed across the line so that customers all the way down to the supermarket don?t get ticked-off and buy another product instead.
Understanding how important that was, the CEO of the toothpaste factory got the top people in the company together and they decided to start a new project, in which they would hire an external engineering company to solve their empty boxes problem, as their engineering department was already too stretched to take on any extra effort.
The project followed the usual process: budget and project sponsor allocated, RFP, third-parties selected, and six months (and $8 million) later they had a fantastic solution ? on time, on budget, high quality and everyone in the project had a great time. They solved the problem by using high-tech precision scales that would sound a bell and flash lights whenever a toothpaste box would weigh less than it should. The line would stop, and someone had to walk over and yank the defective box out of it, pressing another button when done to re-start the line.
A while later, the CEO decides to have a look at the ROI of the project: amazing results! No empty boxes ever shipped out of the factory after the scales were put in place. Very few customer complaints, and they were gaining market share. ?That?s some money well spent!? ? he says, before looking closely at the other statistics in the report.
It turns out, the number of defects picked up by the scales was 0, after three weeks of production use. It should?ve been picking up at least a dozen a day, so maybe there was something wrong with the report. He launched an investigation, and after some work, the engineers come back saying the report was actually correct. The scales really weren't picking up any defects, because all boxes that got to that point in the conveyor belt were good.
Puzzled, the CEO traveled down to the factory, and walked up to the part of the line where the precision scales were installed.
A few feet before the scale, there was a $20 desk fan, blowing any empty boxes off of the belt and into a bin.
?Oh, that,? says one of the workers ? ?one of the guys put it there ?cause he was tired of walking over every time the bell rang.
weressl
Esteemed Member
I am glad you were elected to be the spokesperson for all.
hmy: I provided the definition listed in Wiki for VE and proved that most of the discussion here has NOTHING to do with it.To bad that your ADD prevented you from enjoying the poking of fun at VE.:lol:
renosteinke
Senior Member
- Location
- NE Arkansas
W, I really got a good laugh from that tale! And I bet it really happened somewhere ...
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I was thinking about halfway through why stop the line? Why not just automatically kick the rejects out of the line?
I see one of the companies smarter engineers figured it out though:happyyes:
BullsnPyrs
Senior Member
- Location
- Saint Joe, Arkansas
A few years ago a national retailer had us install programable t-stats in thier stores. Of course we recieved multiple complaints from many of these sites because they were locked out of the t-stat and couldn't adjust the temperature below 76. When we went back to QC the stores many sites had lamps plugged in below the t-stats with bare 100w bulbs. Never underestimate the ability of the worker to get around the system.:lol:
weressl
Esteemed Member
Never underestimate the stupidity of people who can't understand that by wasting the Company's many they putting their livelihood in jeopardy. Could anyone explain to me why holding at 76 degrees is insufficient? Didn't the grandparents of those folks grew up w/o AC? Don't they recognize that the retailer does extensive studies of their stores for customer comfort for profit optimization? Sheees.....:happysad:
ksmith846
Senior Member
- Location
- Port St Lucie, Florida
No matter what the true definition of Value Engineering is, here in SFLA the owner's and GC's commonly ask us for cost saving ideas on almost every job.
They all call it Value Engineering or VE is typically used. "Hey the owner wants to save some money on the electrical bugget. Do you have any VE options we can provide?"
Almost 90% of the time we can cut costs to the lighting packages, for example. Which would be called a VE Option.
We all know that the Architects and Engineers are taken care of by the lighting reps in their areas. Spec a certain manufacturer, they control markups etc.
So you may have "Value Engineered" the lighting spec in the design phase, but if you do not allow equal to spec fixtures, you are just making the owner pay more for their fixtures then they need to. So I have to VE on my end of the construction phase.
You can use VE in your area and we will continue to use it in ours. Just like Kleenex vs. tissues.....who really cares. Lighten up Francis.
They all call it Value Engineering or VE is typically used. "Hey the owner wants to save some money on the electrical bugget. Do you have any VE options we can provide?"
Almost 90% of the time we can cut costs to the lighting packages, for example. Which would be called a VE Option.
We all know that the Architects and Engineers are taken care of by the lighting reps in their areas. Spec a certain manufacturer, they control markups etc.
So you may have "Value Engineered" the lighting spec in the design phase, but if you do not allow equal to spec fixtures, you are just making the owner pay more for their fixtures then they need to. So I have to VE on my end of the construction phase.
You can use VE in your area and we will continue to use it in ours. Just like Kleenex vs. tissues.....who really cares.
Lighten up Francis.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Absolutely, we have great repeat customers that choose us due to our ability to provide VE.
To say it does not happen during, even after the bidding is just absurd.
- Location
- Massachusetts
:lol::lol:
Now I get it, your toes are being stepped on. It is all very clear now. :thumbsup:
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