VE Ideas

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mstrlucky74

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Are there any others that are fairly common?

? AL TO CU FEEDERS, PIPE, BUS
? STEEL FITTINGS TO DIE CAST
? LIGHTING SUBSTITUTE MANUFACTURER/EQUAL
? AIC PANEL RATINGS
? BOLT ON BREAKER AS OPPOSED TO SNAP IN
? FEED THRU LUGS.
 
How do you VE the AIC?...the equipment has to be suitable for the available fault current. Maybe you are talking about using a series rated system?

You also have to look at what happens to the labor...the office almost never does that, but some of the very cheap EMT connectors take a lot more time to install, just because they are junk and don't fit together. It may look like you are saving money, but the additional labor costs will more than eat up that savings.

With billing rates around here approaching $2 a minute, if the cheap junk connector takes an extra 5 seconds, that labor cost is 16 2/3 cents. As long as the cost difference between the good connector and the cheap junk is greater than that you are ok, but if the cost difference is less than that, you are actually increasing the costs of the job.

From my experience this is something that the guys in the office never look at..they only look at the "raw" material costs. I am not sure how they could even look at that as none of the labor tables cover things like this.
 
JoeStillman said:
This one doesn't go well with the die cast fittings.
Click to expand...

why not?

I am not a huge fan of so called value engineering.

It is completely unfair to the other bidders to allow someone to cheapen the project without allowing every one that bid on it to do so.

But, it is a common practice. A fair number of contractors seem to base their business on low balling to the spec in the hopes of getting some relief after the award.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
How do you VE the AIC?...
Click to expand...

Add conductor length to lower the AIC? Of course this increases VD and adds conductor cost so careful selection is necessary but there are occasions where a little more conductor length lowers fault current level enough to reduce needed AIC rating of equipment.
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Are there any others that are fairly common?

? AL TO CU FEEDERS, PIPE, BUS
? STEEL FITTINGS TO DIE CAST
? LIGHTING SUBSTITUTE MANUFACTURER/EQUAL
? AIC PANEL RATINGS
? BOLT ON BREAKER AS OPPOSED TO SNAP IN
? FEED THRU LUGS.
Click to expand...

Use of cable wiring methods instead of raceway wiring methods.

Some smaller projects you may be able to have the supply changed from three phase to single phase - usually saves some in equipment cost - need to get equipment suppliers to go along - especially air conditioning equipment - but a HVAC guy doing his own VE may end up installing single phase units anyway - messing up your plans if you didn't know in advance.
 
petersonra said:
I am not a huge fan of so called value engineering. It is completely unfair to the other bidders to allow someone to cheapen the project without allowing every one that bid on it to do so.
Click to expand...
I am in the middle of such an exercise. But they are calling it "Value Analysis," not "Value Engineering." I like that title better. We are reviewing a project that is at the end of its Schematic Design phase. The "value" decisions will have been made long before any EC gets a chance to bid on the project.

 
mstrlucky74 said:
Are there any others that are fairly common?
Click to expand...
One that I like to place on the table is one that only applies to smaller buildings. If the original design calls for service at 480 volts with the occasional step-down to 120/208, I will offer the suggestion of using 120/208 as the service voltage. It saves energy (i.e., transformer losses) and thereby reduces the HVAC requirements, at the cost of an increase in wire sizes. But it often comes out as the better option.

 
don_resqcapt19 said:
How do you VE the AIC?...the equipment has to be suitable for the available fault current.
Click to expand...
I have seen lots of projects with boiler-plate specifications requiring things like, all 480V breakers be rated 65kAIC but, then there is a note on the drawings to contact the local POCO for transformer sizing and available fault current.

Do you bid per the 65K spec or per the 27kA provided by the utility?
 
JoeStillman said:
They are easier to break. I have also seen a lot of couplings with die-cast set screw fittings pulled apart (mainly in smaller size raceways.) You will get more reliable ground continuity with wrought steel compression fittings.
Click to expand...

Though I agree and generally have been using steel fittings in recent years, partly because the cost of zinc used for die cast fittings has gone up enough that you don't save much anymore and at times they have been higher priced then steel fittings, most of the broken fittings I have seen wouldn't have been broken if proper securing and supporting had been applied.
 
jim dungar said:
I have seen lots of projects with boiler-plate specifications requiring things like, all 480V breakers be rated 65kAIC but, then there is a note on the drawings to contact the local POCO for transformer sizing and available fault current.

Do you bid per the 65K spec or per the 27kA provided by the utility?
Click to expand...

We would bid to the 65kAIC with a note that there is a potential for cost savings by using a lesser rated breaker.

This is not much different IMO than someone that wants everything painted a special color. We just tell them what it costs and point out if they will accept the manufacturer's standard color that it will be less money.
 
Only run the first and last 2 feet of grounding conductors, stuff the loose ends into the conduits.:slaphead: I don't remember where I saw that, but it was in the last 90 days.
 
Cost Cutting

Cost Cutting

Value engineering / more economical / cost effective / call it what you will a good topic some of these may have been mentioned previously off the top of my head:

One thing I always look at is in industrial applications is the conduit type Rigid Steel vs EMT vs Rigid AL, the rigid AL is lighter and will install easier / faster than Rigid Steel if EMT is off the table

If the project calls for cable tray and IAC cable you can look at using tri-plexed tray rated cables usually with the increased ampacity ratings you may be able to drop a set of conductors if it is a parallel run.

AL vs CU for conductors, xfmr. windings, panel busing

Sw.Gear / Sw.Board / Panel board type constructions

using 10Kaic panels for RP's fed from xfmr.'s I have seen many times RP's fed from 75, 45, 30, or 15kVA xfmr.'s requesting 22kAIC where 10kAIC is adequate

Look at the wiring methods is the project specifications indicated all conduit, MC can be a good VE

using feeder MC type cable in some applications

Rings and strings for LV cable & using plaster rings in lieu of conduit and oversized backboxes for LV locations

using modular wiring [re-lock] for high bay fixture applications

not really a VE but I have noticed a lot of contractors now using "pre-fab" techniques, for example in offices or areas where there are a lot of typical assemblies they have these assemblies pre-made in their shop [receptacle, backbox, whip, protector plate] so once they get on site they are installing them not having to put them together on site. Just one example. I know one contractor that will even pre-plan pipe routes and have the conduit bent and ready to install when it arrives on site.
 
JoeStillman said:
They are easier to break. I have also seen a lot of couplings with die-cast set screw fittings pulled apart (mainly in smaller size raceways.) You will get more reliable ground continuity with wrought steel compression fittings.
Click to expand...
I am continually amused by requirements for compression fittings.

When you work in the field and know how easy it is to make up set screw fittings along with all the odd places you have to do so with one hand and a screwdriver vs. trying to do the same with two hands and channel locks in each of them you are left with no doubt that set screw connectors are more than better they are superior.
 
JoeStillman said:
They are easier to break. I have also seen a lot of couplings with die-cast set screw fittings pulled apart (mainly in smaller size raceways.)
Click to expand...

All EMT fittings are listed for grounding.

If they are pulling out or breaking that sounds like poor installation practices, lack of securing and supporting etc.

You will get more reliable ground continuity with wrought steel compression fittings.
Click to expand...

Can you post some numbers to back that up?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top