Very weird AFCIs randomly tripping , new and old

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sparkyman321

New User
Location
NC
Occupation
Electrician
Customer called recently with afci breakers tripping randomly in remodeled basement probably done several Yrs ago before new residents moved in, house aprox 10-20 yrs old with no AFCIs up stairs in living quarters. Basement circuits are all on AFCIs , office, sump pump/ with small printer plugged in, play room plugs and lights and gas furnace ( don’t need that on afci) and should be removed. Customer said breakers would randomly trip for example: something running on one circuit would trip furnace off or using a vacuum would trip a different circuit ect. Nothing made sense so replaced all the old AFCIs to rule out bad AFCIs (4) but customer said a few days ago breakers are still randomly tripping so only thing I can think of is to either take AFCIs out and replace with normal breakers or do a megohm test to see if something is really going on or just some kind of weird wire talk making AFCIs randomly think arc is present ( if that’s even possible ) customer is reluctant to remove AFCIs but wants answers and I havnt seen anything quite like it , usually it’s one circuit the randomly trips and we usually are able to change breaker or look for ground fault and go on our way. I haven’t heard any inspectors comment on removing afci when can’t find any fault.
If anybody wants to share insights it may help bring this to a close I would greatly appreciate it.
 
Location
NE (9.06 miles @5.9 Degrees from Winged Horses)
Occupation
EC - retired
AFCIs can be a real pain. You’ve already done the top recommendation and that’s replace with newer versions. Many have a diagnostic feature. Have you used it? Make sure the customer understands how to use it when they reset the breaker.

Older vacuums are a major source of trips. Once the wife bought a new one, that issue disappeared.

Are your units dual function? AFCI & GFCI.

Make sure the neutrals for each circuit are properly connected and not mixed at the breaker or in j-boxes.

Do a search and you will find some extensive discussions.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
AFCIs are proven to nuisance trip and manufactures admit this. A megger won't tell you a whole lot because it is probably the load on the circuit that is causing the trip. Swap out the offending breakers with GFCI breakers to test for any wiring errors or legitimate problems with any loads then call whatever manufacture you need to to get the most recent run of breakers.

These things are such a fraud. I wish they would require them on heating circuits so the right lawyer's house would get froze up and we could get the class action law suit going.
 

WasGSOHM

Senior Member
Location
Montgomery County MD
Occupation
EE
right lawyer's house
Or a movie star's house.

I'd hook up an event recorder to monitor V and I for several weeks for a look back into the microseconds just before they trip, but this is not practical in these situations.
Car dealers will hook up one of these for knotty problems if the car owner has friends in high places.

I get the feeling that the homeowners got the elevator and the electricians got the shaft. The electricians are supposed to correctly diagnose a probable design defect in a very complex chunk of electronics and software.

It's perfect. Here's my script for this play:
I made & sold this experimental thing in the interest of public safety, the HO had to buy it, and now you fix it.
I wash my hands.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Or a movie star's house.

I'd hook up an event recorder to monitor V and I for several weeks for a look back into the microseconds just before they trip, but this is not practical in these situations.
Car dealers will hook up one of these for knotty problems if the car owner has friends in high places.

I get the feeling that the homeowners got the elevator and the electricians got the shaft. The electricians are supposed to correctly diagnose a probable design defect in a very complex chunk of electronics and software.

It's perfect. Here's my script for this play:
I made & sold this experimental thing in the interest of public safety, the HO had to buy it, and now you fix it.
I wash my hands.
That is about the shortest way I have seen it put that is still reasonably close to what went on.

Contactors are the ones that have their hands tied up the tightest on these stupid things.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Customer called recently with afci breakers tripping randomly in remodeled basement probably done several Yrs ago before new residents moved in, house aprox 10-20 yrs old with no AFCIs up stairs in living quarters. Basement circuits are all on AFCIs , office, sump pump/ with small printer plugged in, play room plugs and lights and gas furnace ( don’t need that on afci) and should be removed. Customer said breakers would randomly trip for example: something running on one circuit would trip furnace off or using a vacuum would trip a different circuit ect. Nothing made sense so replaced all the old AFCIs to rule out bad AFCIs (4) but customer said a few days ago breakers are still randomly tripping so only thing I can think of is to either take AFCIs out and replace with normal breakers or do a megohm test to see if something is really going on or just some kind of weird wire talk making AFCIs randomly think arc is present ( if that’s even possible ) customer is reluctant to remove AFCIs but wants answers and I havnt seen anything quite like it , usually it’s one circuit the randomly trips and we usually are able to change breaker or look for ground fault and go on our way. I haven’t heard any inspectors comment on removing afci when can’t find any fault.
If anybody wants to share insights it may help bring this to a close I would greatly appreciate it.
If a load on one circuit causes tripping on another circuit (and there is no interconnection load side of breakers between them) it is either RF interference or some other "noise" introduced on the lines that the device doesn't play well with. Could even be something coming from a separate building, the neighbor, etc. yet guess who is tasked with fixing it and even at their own expense in some cases? That's right the contractor. You might get improved AFCI to replace it with at no charge, but you are not getting reimbursed for anything else involved here.
 

WasGSOHM

Senior Member
Location
Montgomery County MD
Occupation
EE
Thanks, kwired.

Somewhere upstream an AFCI maker hired a strategy consultant to run through all the worst case scenarios using a computer and came up with countermoves so that they will never be left holding the bag.

These equipment problems are happening out of sight, like the 1200 people who die every day from smoking-related illnesses.
The newspapers are not going to care about this unless some lives are lost.
A lot of lives, or mutilating injuries, or spectacular property damage.

But, from this forum. . .
"Mike, I invented the AFCI circuit breaker in the 1980s and my engineering staff at www.zlan.com advanced its technology in the 90s: (Lee Blanton & Bob Clunn)."

To the extent that these guys are scientists and not politically savvy, they may help you if you e-mail them. Unless their lawyers put the kibosh on it.
The element of surprise is in your favor. Bypass the Public Relations people and other middlemen.
They may ask for numbers ID-ing the units that are giving you trouble.

The last time I was ever put into an impossible situation that was arranged by powerful bad guys, I got an ulcer.
 
Last edited:

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
We talked about this in here in the past, but walkie-talkie and Ham radios will trip AFCIs and GFCIs, there are videos proving it.
Link.
Link2.

Look around your neighborhood to see if someone has a big Ham ratio antenna on top of their house. or even check with the homeowner if they have installed some sort of RF based wireless system.
 

WasGSOHM

Senior Member
Location
Montgomery County MD
Occupation
EE
I now recall that AFCI makers will ship you a special interference filter, but only if you ask for it.

Maybe hardly anyone in the US is that close to a strong RF source for very long.

The AFCI makers play the odds.
 

Rdcowart

Senior Member
Location
North Carolina
Occupation
Electrical license Holder
Have you checked the main neutral yet . Have found a loose main neutral can cause this. I Had this problem one time before with the light bulb in the dryer would trip off random breakers when the door was opened. I removed the light bulb and solved the problem.
 

James L

Senior Member
Location
Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
Occupation
Electrician
Have you checked the main neutral yet . Have found a loose main neutral can cause this. I Had this problem one time before with the light bulb in the dryer would trip off random breakers when the door was opened. I removed the light bulb and solved the problem.
Maybe not the bulb itself, but slow action of the door switch.

I have tripped afci breakers by intentionally turning on a wall switch as slow as possible. There's a slight arc just before contact. If the switch closes slow enough, the arc can be big enough.

I've also seen an incandescent nightlight trip afci when it turns on automatically w/photo eye
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maybe not the bulb itself, but slow action of the door switch.

I have tripped afci breakers by intentionally turning on a wall switch as slow as possible. There's a slight arc just before contact. If the switch closes slow enough, the arc can be big enough.

I've also seen an incandescent nightlight trip afci when it turns on automatically w/photo eye
Photoeye still has a contact to operate the load. The ones that turn on/off instantaneously have a electromagnetic driver, the ones with time delay use a bimetal strip as the driver and it takes time to heat or cool it to make it operate.
 

WasGSOHM

Senior Member
Location
Montgomery County MD
Occupation
EE
Maybe not the bulb itself, but slow action of the door switch.

I have tripped afci breakers by intentionally turning on a wall switch as slow as possible. There's a slight arc just before contact. If the switch closes slow enough, the arc can be big enough.

I've also seen an incandescent nightlight trip afci when it turns on automatically w/photo eye
A switch is supposed to have a snap action to limit the arc duration, like a Schmitt trigger. Maybe the spring-loaded snap part gets "tired".
I guess it makes sense to have a long-duration arc trigger an AFCI.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Customer called recently with afci breakers tripping randomly in remodeled basement probably done several Yrs ago before new residents moved in, house aprox 10-20 yrs old with no AFCIs up stairs in living quarters. Basement circuits are all on AFCIs , office, sump pump/ with small printer plugged in, play room plugs and lights and gas furnace ( don’t need that on afci) and should be removed. Customer said breakers would randomly trip for example: something running on one circuit would trip furnace off or using a vacuum would trip a different circuit ect. Nothing made sense so replaced all the old AFCIs to rule out bad AFCIs (4) but customer said a few days ago breakers are still randomly tripping so only thing I can think of is to either take AFCIs out and replace with normal breakers or do a megohm test to see if something is really going on or just some kind of weird wire talk making AFCIs randomly think arc is present ( if that’s even possible ) customer is reluctant to remove AFCIs but wants answers and I haven't seen anything quite like it , usually it’s one circuit the randomly trips and we usually are able to change breaker or look for ground fault and go on our way. I haven’t heard any inspectors comment on removing afci when can’t find any fault.
If anybody wants to share insights it may help bring this to a close I would greatly appreciate it.
Regardless of what I personally think of AFCI's, I often get sent out to figure out why stuff like this is happening.
I have successfully done this for over 12 years.
All I can say is I have resolved every case to date, there is no need for you to give up.
Some get very expensive to resolve, so you need to get clear on the budget.

In your case I would remove the furnace from the AFCI and put it on its on 15A circuit.
I have a custom solution for old vacuums.

This is a cut and paste of my basic outline:

AFCI troubleshooting procedure:

1) Visit the site and gather as many facts as you can about the trips.
A. Find out who has done what wiring recently, even low voltage.
B. Document all recent alterations, construction, renovations.
Did someone install,repair or replace a deck, shelving, roof, foundation or plumbing ?
C. Create a detailed panel schedule noting each breakers loads, function and amps.
D. Visually inspect the service for obvious problems.
E. Note which breakers were tripping.
F. Provide the system user a notebook to log the time of a trip and what appliances on those circuits were on.

2) Electrical operational test: Turn on all lighting and appliances, demonstrate that all equipment, is connected and in working order.
A. Note any flickering buzzing or other irregularities.
B. Check the temperature of the breakers in the panel during this test.

3) Electrical polarity and voltage drop: Test with an 'Ideal Sure Test' the permanently wired lighting, equipment and receptacle outlets to determine that connections have been properly made and voltage will not be less than 108V at any 120V equipment under
A. 12 Amp load test for 15A circuits
B. 15A load test for 20A circuits.
C. 20A load test for 30A circuits.

D. Note any 10% or higher voltage drop.
E. In no case should voltage drop be above 14% for systems running 120-127 Volts. (ANSI-C84.1)

4) If the AFCI trip cannot be reproduced during a site visit setup a data logger to record voltage to ground, and 3 CT’s that record miliamps on the Hot, Neutral and ECG of the affected circuit.
5) Affix a identification label or color dot to the 'problem' breakers indicating their position number in the panel.
A. Remove the breakers and replace with same amperage GFCI breaker 30ma Class B.
B. Run ‘Electrical operational test’ again with a 30ma Class B GFCI breaker installed.
C. If the breakers don't trip leave them in place for 30 days with the data logger.

6) Dielectric Strength Test. This tests the branch circuits, remove all devices such as GFCI’s, dimmer’s, regular switches are to remain. Completely remove all light bulbs lamps, disconnect LED and fluorescent fixtures.
A. The wiring of each AFCI circuit shall be subjected to a 1-minute, 1000 volt, dielectric strength test (with all switches closed) between live parts (including neutral conductor) and the grounding electrode conductor.
B. Listed luminaires or appliances shall not be included in this test.
C. This test is outlined in NEC 550.17(A).

7) Single point grounding Test; Switch the service off, disconnect the service neutral, MBJ and or GEC from the neutral bar, test the neutral bar for continuity to the GEC with the megger on 250 Volts. There should be no parallel paths to ground.
Note more than one path to ground can give stray voltages from power-line,lighting, or ham radio a path thru the building.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Regardless of what I personally think of AFCI's, I often get sent out to figure out why stuff like this is happening.
I have successfully done this for over 12 years.
All I can say is I have resolved every case to date, there is no need for you to give up.
Some get very expensive to resolve, so you need to get clear on the budget.

In your case I would remove the furnace from the AFCI and put it on its on 15A circuit.
I have a custom solution for old vacuums.

This is a cut and paste of my basic outline:

AFCI troubleshooting procedure:

1) Visit the site and gather as many facts as you can about the trips.
A. Find out who has done what wiring recently, even low voltage.
B. Document all recent alterations, construction, renovations.
Did someone install,repair or replace a deck, shelving, roof, foundation or plumbing ?
C. Create a detailed panel schedule noting each breakers loads, function and amps.
D. Visually inspect the service for obvious problems.
E. Note which breakers were tripping.
F. Provide the system user a notebook to log the time of a trip and what appliances on those circuits were on.

2) Electrical operational test: Turn on all lighting and appliances, demonstrate that all equipment, is connected and in working order.
A. Note any flickering buzzing or other irregularities.
B. Check the temperature of the breakers in the panel during this test.

3) Electrical polarity and voltage drop: Test with an 'Ideal Sure Test' the permanently wired lighting, equipment and receptacle outlets to determine that connections have been properly made and voltage will not be less than 108V at any 120V equipment under
A. 12 Amp load test for 15A circuits
B. 15A load test for 20A circuits.
C. 20A load test for 30A circuits.

D. Note any 10% or higher voltage drop.
E. In no case should voltage drop be above 14% for systems running 120-127 Volts. (ANSI-C84.1)

4) If the AFCI trip cannot be reproduced during a site visit setup a data logger to record voltage to ground, and 3 CT’s that record miliamps on the Hot, Neutral and ECG of the affected circuit.
5) Affix a identification label or color dot to the 'problem' breakers indicating their position number in the panel.
A. Remove the breakers and replace with same amperage GFCI breaker 30ma Class B.
B. Run ‘Electrical operational test’ again with a 30ma Class B GFCI breaker installed.
C. If the breakers don't trip leave them in place for 30 days with the data logger.

6) Dielectric Strength Test. This tests the branch circuits, remove all devices such as GFCI’s, dimmer’s, regular switches are to remain. Completely remove all light bulbs lamps, disconnect LED and fluorescent fixtures.
A. The wiring of each AFCI circuit shall be subjected to a 1-minute, 1000 volt, dielectric strength test (with all switches closed) between live parts (including neutral conductor) and the grounding electrode conductor.
B. Listed luminaires or appliances shall not be included in this test.
C. This test is outlined in NEC 550.17(A).

7) Single point grounding Test; Switch the service off, disconnect the service neutral, MBJ and or GEC from the neutral bar, test the neutral bar for continuity to the GEC with the megger on 250 Volts. There should be no parallel paths to ground.
Note more than one path to ground can give stray voltages from power-line,lighting, or ham radio a path thru the building.
How many want a second opinion before they let you put much into it?
 
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