Virginia - unpermitted work

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NathanVA

NathanVA

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Location
Alexandria, VA
Occupation
Master Electrician and Electrical Contractor
I have a question for my Virginia electricians. It seems like I'm up against some stiff competition from electricians that won't pull permits. It seems to happen all the time and without consequence. A minority of customers seem to be willing to pay a little more for me to pull a permit and have the project take slightly longer and have it done right. (I submitted a bit to a customer who specifically went with me because I did things by the book. Another electrician gave him a hard time after he (the owner) asked if permits would be pulled, acting as though the owner was out of line for expecting permits and inspections.)

Anyway, it's frustrating. Pulling permits seems to be the exception rather than the rule. What is your all's experience? What are the consequences for performing work without a permit? Because I have to say, I haven't seen a single consequence so far and frankly, I'm starting to feel like an idiot for pulling permits for every job.
 
I’ve seen a lot of shoddy work that wouldn’t even come close to passing an inspection. I’m sure you have too. One was for a retail store in a strip mall. They had me out there to bud on adding receptacles. The first thing that stood out to me is the orange extension cord they had plugged into the store front receptacle in the ceiling. It turned up and into the drop tile ceiling. When I asked the manager what that was about, he said a few years ago, they had a new sign put on the front of the store. I’m not talking about a little dinky “open” sign, I mean a massive sign anchored to the concrete façade of the building.
 
AC\DC said:
You see that stuff around here, and we are a permit heavy state.
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So what’s the incentive to pulling a permit? Or the disincentive to not pulling a permit? I’m coming up short on answers to either at this point…
 
petersonra said:
What makes you think that permits make a job better?
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Because in some areas the folks that get permits and are inspected take more pride in their work?

There are always going to be people doing with without licenses or permits, and to be true a few of them do high-quality to-code work, then there are licensed contractors who's work is terrible but it might still pass.

It really depends on the area, I'd expect for NoVa that reputable tradesmen would go the license/permit route, but then sometimes that new sub-panel is "just a repair"....
 
NathanVA said:
So what’s the incentive to pulling a permit? Or the disincentive to not pulling a permit? I’m coming up short on answers to either at this point…
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One disadvantage of not pulling a permit is I have had people notice relatively new electrical work on a house that is for sale, investigate the permit history to find that it was not permitted and use that as a negotiating tactic to get the price dropped.
 
electrofelon said:
One disadvantage of not pulling a permit is I have had people notice relatively new electrical work on a house that is for sale, investigate the permit history to find that it was not permitted and use that as a negotiating tactic to get the price dropped.
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Interesting that you mentioned this. This very concept is what prompted me to make the post. I saw a nice house for sale that talked about recent tankless water heater conversion and new HVAC equipment. I checked the county permit database and not a permit has been pulled since 1985. I asked my realtor a few questions about this. The two main questions being 1) what recourses do we have as a buyer and 2) has a deal ever fallen through due to unpermitted work? His answers 1) in this market - not much we can do. A home inspector will help ensure its safe and correct (as best he or she can, of course), but if we were to make a stink about permits, the seller would just move on to the next buyer. 2) only once in his 18 years as a realtor had this come up as an issue. The sellers got the work permitted and inspected and it was essentially a non event. But the market at the time was a buyers market.
 
The question that springs to my mind is why you think those who are not pulling permits are Electricians. I would say that 90% of the electrical work done in Northern VA is done by people who don't even have a Journeyman's License, much less the Master's License that is required to pull permits.

Mark
 
busman said:
The question that springs to my mind is why you think those who are not pulling permits are Electricians.
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So you’re saying is the majority of owners in northern Virginia are hiring unlicensed contractors?

Perhaps then a solution would be home owner education? Have the owner insist the contractors they hire have a license and lay out simple steps to verify the license. Oh, wait. That won’t work. Sounds like too much effort and it’ll drive the price up.

I admit that I am naïve in wishing everyone played by the rules and did what they’re supposed to do.
 
Probably in residential, but in commercial, permitting is not pushed by the customers because when the inspector gets in there, they see other violations (some electrical, others, not) This opens a big can of worms. I looked at a generator install, the customer built out an office space without a permit. Nothing to do with what I was doing, but would have sent up big red flags for the inspector when he went into the electrical room. They built a wall in front of the panels, leaving less than 2’ clearance. All of my work was outside, but you know the inspector would want to look at the panels inside too.This wasn’t a mom and pop shop, it was a big corporation. Do you open that can of worms for a very large customer?
busman said:
The question that springs to my mind is why you think those who are not pulling permits are Electricians. I would say that 90% of the electrical work done in Northern VA is done by people who don't even have a Journeyman's License, much less the Master's License that is required to pull permits.

Ma
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NathanVA said:
So you’re saying is the majority of owners in northern Virginia are hiring unlicensed contractors?

Perhaps then a solution would be home owner education? Have the owner insist the contractors they hire have a license and lay out simple steps to verify the license. Oh, wait. That won’t work. Sounds like too much effort and it’ll drive the price up.

I admit that I am naïve in wishing everyone played by the rules and did what they’re supposed to do.
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Homeowners either don't know (not educated) or don't care (want it cheap) in my experience. Mostly the latter.

Mark
 
NathanVA said:
Interesting that you mentioned this. This very concept is what prompted me to make the post. I saw a nice house for sale that talked about recent tankless water heater conversion and new HVAC equipment. I checked the county permit database and not a permit has been pulled since 1985. I asked my realtor a few questions about this. The two main questions being 1) what recourses do we have as a buyer and 2) has a deal ever fallen through due to unpermitted work? His answers 1) in this market - not much we can do. A home inspector will help ensure its safe and correct (as best he or she can, of course), but if we were to make a stink about permits, the seller would just move on to the next buyer. 2) only once in his 18 years as a realtor had this come up as an issue. The sellers got the work permitted and inspected and it was essentially a non event. But the market at the time was a buyers market.
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Around here in the current market, buyers are waiving home inspections in order to improve their bargaining position. It’s a crazy market.
 
NathanVA said:
Interesting that you mentioned this. This very concept is what prompted me to make the post. I saw a nice house for sale that talked about recent tankless water heater conversion and new HVAC equipment. I checked the county permit database and not a permit has been pulled since 1985. I asked my realtor a few questions about this. The two main questions being 1) what recourses do we have as a buyer and 2) has a deal ever fallen through due to unpermitted work? His answers 1) in this market - not much we can do. A home inspector will help ensure its safe and correct (as best he or she can, of course), but if we were to make a stink about permits, the seller would just move on to the next buyer. 2) only once in his 18 years as a realtor had this come up as an issue. The sellers got the work permitted and inspected and it was essentially a non event. But the market at the time was a buyers market.
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Makes sense. In a sellers market most buyers wont make a stink about it because the seller will just move on.
 
While you might think that unpermitted work is of low quality and inherently dangerous, I have seen no actual evidence to suggest that is the case, especially for residential work. People are tied of paying through the nose for government oversight that serves no useful purpose so it is not real surprising that they cheat around the edges on it.

About 30 years ago I wanted to put up a split rail fence around my front yard. Turns out I had to get a permit that cost 50 cents. it is all about you ratting yourself out on improvements so your RE taxes can be increased. Safety is way down the list of reasons.
 
petersonra said:
While you might think that unpermitted work is of low quality and inherently dangerous…
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not really. I’ve seen both permitted work that was hammered doggy do and non permitted work that was top notch. So, no direct correlation between permits and quality, although of course to pass inspection, it has to meet minimum standards. My post (rant?) was the lack of apparent incentive for pulling permits since there appears to be no consequence for not pulling them and disincentives to not pulling them.
 
NathanVA said:
not really. I’ve seen both permitted work that was hammered doggy do and non permitted work that was top notch. So, no direct correlation between permits and quality, although of course to pass inspection, it has to meet minimum standards. My post (rant?) was the lack of apparent incentive for pulling permits since there appears to be no consequence for not pulling them and disincentives to not pulling them.
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Can you blame people for not wanting to have their already insanely high R.E. taxes increased by pulling a permit?
 
NathanVA said:
..It seems like I'm up against some stiff competition from electricians that won't pull permits.
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My state wide investigative fraud team S.W.I.F.T conducts home invasion sting projects with local law enforcement, fines, incarcerates, & fills their patty wagons with criminals that violate license law.

Unfortunately, in red States S.W.I.F.T doesn't exist, and in blue States it's scaled back by local governors that deregulate, and defund all government Consumer Protection agencies.

I live in a blue state with a history of republican Governator's that defunded municipal government budgets, resulting in replacing electrical inspectors with combination inspectors.

These general inspectors can't recognize common electrical-code violations, much less do squat about uninsured laborers violating labor codes, nor the unlicensed employers that subject everything they touch to Latent, Hidden, or Construction Defect law.

US homeowners that hate their government, avoid licensed tradesmen, and the building permit process, void their property insurance, and send insurance premiums into a black hole, since any casually claims will be disqualified for multiple legal causes.
 
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