Voltage, AC Voltage, and Phase

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winnie

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Location
Springfield, MA, USA
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Electric motor research
I am writing up some background for the single phase or two phase discussion. Please hold off on the comments until I have the whole thing up (at least a week).

-Jon

Instantaneous Voltage

The first thing to understand is that Voltage is a relative measurement. Voltage always is a measurement between two points. In this sense, voltage is analogous to height. You _cannot_ say that a point is at a particular height; you can only say that the point is at a height relative to another point. A _very_ common trick with relative measurements such as height or voltage is to select a reference level, and to use this reference level as one of the two points needed for the measurement. With height, a common reference is 'mean sea level'. When we talk about the height of a mountain, we usually mention the height versus mean sea level...but we could use another reference entirely, as long as we specify it. For buildings, we generally describe how tall they are as the height versus the surrounding terrain, not the height above MSL. Both are entirely correct descriptions of the height of a point at the top of the building, but with different values because different reference points are used.

Voltage is a measurement of the amount of work required to move a charge from one location to another, or equivalently the power associated with a flow of current from one location to another. For example, if the flow of 1 amp from one point to another results in the dissipation of 100W of power, then there is a 100V potential difference between those two points. By definition, the voltage of a single point is undefined. You can only measure the voltage _between_ two points.

When you have a system with N points under consideration, you have a total of N*(N-1) possible pairs of points between which you could measure voltage. Note: this includes both a given pair of points and its inverse; the voltage from A to B is exactly the negative of the voltage from B to A, and N*(N-1) includes both directions. As you can see, with more that a few points, the number of voltage pairs to consider becomes tremendous. For example, in a 3 phase, 4 wire delta with center tap there are actually 12 different possible voltage measurements.

But we do the same simplification trick with voltages that we can do with heights. We pick a single point (or set of points of constant potential) and call this our reference. We then measure the voltage between our points of interest and this reference. This reference point is entirely arbitrary, but as long as we keep the same reference point for all of our calculations, we will get the correct results. Most commonly for electrical work, we use _ground_ as the reference. Physicists like to use 'infinity' as the reference 'point', the idea being that a test charge out very far away cannot interact with your system, but this is just a mathematical trick; 'infinity' as the reference point is just as valid as 'ground', though harder to reach with your test leads.

With a reference point selected, we can define (with suitable measurement) the voltages of all the other points in the system. Each point in the system is identified with a voltage number, but this number is really the voltage from the reference to that point, not the voltage of the single point itself.

Okay. So far in the above we have only defined DC or instantaneous voltage. We've given no consideration to AC voltage, nor to current. But already you can see how the specific voltage numbers that you get will depend upon the voltage reference point that you select. The voltages that you measure between any pair of points in the system will remain the same, no matter which voltage reference you select, but the numbers that are 'voltage between this point and the reference' will change as the reference changes.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
How do we measure AC voltage?

AC voltage adds a level of complexity. Not only do we have voltage, defined like any other voltage, between two points, but this voltage is continuously changing with time. Since we are not equipped to deal with an infinite series of numbers to describe the infinite different values that the voltage can assume, we need a better way to describe this constantly changing voltage. It turns out that we can make a simplifying assumption, and describe this constantly changing voltage with a very few numbers.

First we can describe the magnitude of this constantly changing voltage. We do this by means of an _average_. While the voltage from A to B is constantly changing, we can describe the _average_ voltage from A to B in a single number. Now when I say 'average', you might think 'add all the values up, and divide by the number of values', which is not correct. There are actually several different ways to calculate 'average', all of which describe the original function in different ways. The most common method of 'taking the average' is called the "mean", and is actually pretty useless in this case. In a balanced AC system, the voltage between any pair of points spends equal time positive and equal time negative, and thus the mean voltage is _zero_. Having a meter that always reads _zero_ would be rather useless, even if it were correct.

Instead we use a type of average called the 'root mean square'. To calculate this form of average, you take your numbers, square them individually, take the mean of the squares, and then take the square root of the mean. This particular average much more usefully represents the changing voltage, and AC of X Volts RMS will deliver the same average power to a resistive load as DC of X Volts.

Okay, so we've described the magnitude of this constantly changing voltage, but that is still not enough to fully describe an AC voltage.
 

websparky

Senior Member
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Jon,

How can you start a new subject and assume yourself as an instructor or an authority when you have failed to answer realitivaly basic questions I and others have asked in the other thread?????

Why should anyone want to hear your theory about any subject based on what you have said so far???

How about answering these questions?
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
winnie said:
Instantaneous Voltage

The first thing to understand is that Voltage is a relative measurement. Voltage always is a measurement between two points. In this sense, voltage is analogous to height. You _cannot_ say that a point is at a particular height; you can only say that the point is at a height relative to another point. A _very_ common trick with relative measurements such as height or voltage is to select a reference level, and to use this reference level as one of the two points needed for the measurement. .
Enough already. You made the point.

Voltage is a measurement of the amount of work required to move a charge from one location to another, or equivalently the power associated with a flow of current from one location to another..
Not true. Voltage is the measurement of the potential difference beteen two points. You said this is you statement above.
 

Dnkldorf

Senior Member
websparky said:
Jon,
Why should anyone want to hear your theory about any subject based on what you have said so far???


If you don't mind, I like Jon's writtings. I would like to hear them.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
You need to go back to school, before you start teaching school.

winnie said:
Voltage is a measurement of the amount of work required to move a charge from one location to another,
Not true. Change the word ?work? to ?energy,? and clarify that it is a ?unit charge? under consideration, and you will have it right.

winnie said:
(Voltage is) . . . or equivalently the power associated with a flow of current from one location to another.
Not true. Equating voltage to power is nonsense. They are related, in the way you described. But saying ?voltage is the power associated with . . . ? is wrong.

winnie said:
By definition, the voltage of a single point is undefined. You can only measure the voltage _between_ two points.
Not true. The voltage (or potential difference) between a point and itself is, according to the definition of ?voltage,? exactly ?zero volts.? It is an important fact, without which ?Kirchhoff?s Voltage Law? could not have been formulated.

winnie said:
It turns out that we can make a simplifying assumption, and describe this constantly changing voltage with a very few numbers.
It?s not an assumption, it is a model. Nothing is being assumed.

winnie said:
Now when I say 'average', you might think 'add all the values up, and divide by the number of values', which is not correct.
Yes it is correct. That is what the word ?average? means. It?s just that we don?t use average values, because they convey no useful information, as you correctly pointed out.

winnie said:
There are actually several different ways to calculate 'average', all of which describe the original function in different ways.
No. There is only one way to calculate ?average.? It is the way you described earlier. If you calculate something in any other way, the thing you are calculating is not ?average,? it is something else.

winnie said:
Instead we use a type of average called the 'root mean square'. To calculate this form of average. . . .
RMS is not a ?type of average.? The RMS value of any waveform is not the average of that waveform.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Dave,

The answers to your questions are already in what I wrote. That this is not apparent means that I did not write clearly enough. The only way that I feel that I can answer your questions is to start with the basis of my statements. That is the purpose of this thread.

Bob,

A charge in an electric field will have a certain energy associated with its position, or electrostatic potential energy. When this charge is moved to a different location, then it will have a different potential energy. Voltage is a measurement of the potential energy difference of a unit test charge from one location to another. A potential energy difference means that potential energy has either been stored or released. So voltage is a difference of potential, or _equivalently_ the energy change associated with a 'unit test charge' moving from one location to another, or is _proportional_ to the energy change associates with an arbitrary charge moving from one location to another.

Charlie B,

You are correct, I need to either specify motion of a unit charge, or say 'proportional'. The units of work are the same as the units of energy, so I believe that I am correct saying work rather than energy.

Equating voltage to power is not correct. However I was equating voltage to the power associated with current flowing in that voltage differential. 1 Volt is 1 Joule per Coulomb. Equivalently, 1 Volt is 1 Watt per Amp.

I stand corrected on the voltage of a single point. Voltage can only be non-zero between two different points, but the potential difference of a single point relative to itself, rather then being undefined, _must_ be zero.

Your language point about models versus assumptions seems quite reasonable.

I disagree with you on my use of 'average'. You are using 'average' to mean 'arithmetic mean'. I am using average in the more inclusive sense used in the wikipedia article on 'average' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average This is a common and correct usage of the term 'average'. I should not have said that it is incorrect to use 'average' to mean 'arithmetic mean', because this is also a common and correct use of the term. I should have said 'A more generalized usage of the term average includes....' I'll try to remain self consistent that 'average' includes both the 'mean' and the 'root mean square', and then stick with the more limited terms if I mean those specific forms of average.

-Jon
 

charlie b

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Retired Electrical Engineer
Once again, you are being imprecise in your use of terms.

winnie said:
The units of work are the same as the units of energy, so I believe that I am correct saying work rather than energy.
I disagree. The units of watts, VA, and VAR are the same, but they represent entirely different concepts. Work and energy are related, in that the work performed on an object by a conservative force in a frictionless environment will equal the energy expended by the force. But work is not energy, and energy is not work.

winnie said:
I was equating voltage to the power associated with current flowing in that voltage differential.
Here again, two parameters may have a relationship, but not be equivalent. Voltage and power are related in the manner you have described. But you can not ?equate? voltage to power.

winnie said:
I am using average in the more inclusive sense used in the wikipedia article on
I declined to read the article to which you posted a link. I?ll have nothing to do with Wikipedia. Come back to me with an authoritative source, and I promise to have a look.

winnie said:
I'll try to remain self consistent that 'average' includes both the 'mean' and the 'root mean square',
I say again, RMS is not an average. In order to calculate RMS, an average value of something is taken, in the manner that you described. But when you get the final answer, it is not an average of anything. It is incorrect to use the word ?average? in describing RMS values.
 

jim dungar

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Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
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PE (Retired) - Power Systems
I do not put all of my engineering faith into a website whose purpose seems to be the simplification of complex ideas. Especially when they use phrases like "Part of the role of the ground wire is to force the breaker to trip by supplying a path to ground ..." They are definitely trying to only use simple concepts.
 

rattus

Senior Member
jim dungar said:
I do not put all of my engineering faith into a website whose purpose seems to be the simplification of complex ideas. Especially when they use phrases like "Part of the role of the ground wire is to force the breaker to trip by supplying a path to ground ..." They are definitely trying to only use simple concepts.

Jim, I believe that is the purpose of the site--to convey basic ideas in a way that can be understood by the untrained.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Charlie,

I appreciate the correction on work versus energy. It is sloppy to simply conflate the two even though they easily inter-convert. One does work (possibly negative) on a charge to move it, and this results in a change of potential energy of the charge. If the system is conservative and things are stationary at the beginning and end of the motion, then the amount of work is equal to the change in energy. A bad habit that I picked up.

On the use of 'average', do you consider "The American Heritage Dictionary" sufficiently authoritative? http://www.bartleby.com/61/53/A0545300.html Notice that meaning _b_ is "arithmetic mean", whereas meaning _a_ is the rather general "A number that typifies a set of numbers of which it is a function." There are many different functions that produce numbers that typify a set of numbers, "arithmetic mean" being one of the most common. For what its worth, I feel that this is a tangential discussion to the main point, and won't pursue it further. RMS is used to describe the magnitude of AC voltages, and it doesn't matter to the discussion if you consider RMS a form of average or simply a function that is used to typify the magnitude of a constantly changing function.

-Jon
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Rattus,

I think the site is great for simple explanations. I just don't think it is "exact" enough to be cited as a reference in a technical discussion.
 

rattus

Senior Member
Here, here!

Here, here!

kingpb said:
So the site may be over simplified. Why make it harder then it is.

No need to use the 12th decimal place on the calculator just because it's there.

Agreed, a good engineer knows how to approximate. He also knows that three significant figures are usually close enough.
 
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