voltage/amperage.

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i am a 1st yr appr. a questoin on our test read " in a simple circuit if voltage goes up what will current (amperage) do?" we and our instrctor all said current would go down but the answer the book gave was "go up". i dont understand this. i know that on motor namplate if the volts doubles the amperage cuts in half. so what is the correct answer to the question???
 
If the load is resistive the current will go up with an increase in voltage and down with a decrease in voltage. Simple ohms law, the voltage and current are in direct proportion.

Look at this formula:

I=E/R
I=1/1 or 1 amp, now double the voltage

I=E/R
I=2/1 or 2 amps
 
the question started out by "in a simple circuit", later you added something about a motor.

a simple circuit, as pointed out above, is a resistive circuit - a voltage/current source and a resistive load. voltage goes up causes current to increase (E=IR)

a motor is anything but simple, it is inductive, and may often be inductive-capacitive. the motor has counter emf which resists the change of the source, and the answer that the current goes down when voltage goes up by your instructor was intended to apply to an inductive circuit like a motor.
 
I agree, the key is in the "simple circuit" part. Your instructor either missed this or you should look around for a different instructor. This is "simple ohm's law."
 
In simple circuit, current and voltage are directly proportional. That is, with constant resistance current increases as voltage increases. However with given constant Power (watts), current decreases as voltage increased (P=V x I).
 
i am a 1st yr appr. a questoin on our test read " in a simple circuit if voltage goes up what will current (amperage) do?" we and our instrctor all said current would go down but the answer the book gave was "go up". i dont understand this. i know that on motor namplate if the volts doubles the amperage cuts in half. so what is the correct answer to the question???
I'm with nakulak here.
In a simple linear circuit, more volts will result in more current.
If you double the voltage applied to a motor, all else being unchanged, current will most certainly increase.
 
Or you'll burn it up... Motors that have dual voltage ratings usually require that you change some jumpers. This is basically changing the windings (which are similar to resistors) between series or parallel. Windings go in series (higher total resistance) for the higher voltage setting and in parallel (lower resistance) for the lower voltage setting.
 
i am a 1st yr appr. a questoin on our test read " in a simple circuit if voltage goes up what will current (amperage) do?" we and our instrctor all said current would go down but the answer the book gave was "go up". i dont understand this. i know that on motor namplate if the volts doubles the amperage cuts in half. so what is the correct answer to the question???

Think about it the otherway...
what happens if the voltage goes down? By the logic you used above, when you place a lamp on a variac/wall dimmer, as you dim the lights and approach zero volts the current would approach infinite...
 
i am a 1st yr appr. a questoin on our test read " in a simple circuit if voltage goes up what will current (amperage) do?" we and our instrctor all said current would go down but the answer the book gave was "go up". i dont understand this. i know that on motor namplate if the volts doubles the amperage cuts in half. so what is the correct answer to the question???



You have to plug in the formula in order to see what happens in any given circuit. Both Voltage and Current are directly proportional when Resistance stays the same. Basic Ohm's law (I=E/R). What you and your instructor, not to mention a lot of folks I've come across, is you've confused what happens in a transformer. When Power stays the same, and in a transformer it does, and you increase the Voltage, then your Current must decrease proportionally (P=E*I). Voltage and Current then become indirectly proportional.

I think we all look to break things down in its simplest form. But with Voltage and Current you can't just say that they are directly proportional all the time, in this case with Ohm's law. If something in the circuit causes your Resistance to change (and in a transformer and a motor that's what happens) then the proportionality of Voltage and Current must also change.

So, tell folks, yes, Voltage and Current are directly proportional but only so long as Resistance stays the same.
 
What you and your instructor, not to mention a lot of folks I've come across, is you've confused what happens in a transformer. When Power stays the same, and in a transformer it does, and you increase the Voltage, then your Current must decrease proportionally (P=E*I). Voltage and Current then become indirectly proportional.
You are confusing the primary to secondary ratio of a transformer with how a transformer responds to a change in voltage. Yes, a transformer follows the laws of conservation of energy and the power out equals the power in (minus losses), but when examining a change in voltage on the windings, the transformer still follows Ohm's law. (Ohm's law remains true--hence its called a "law"--even when dealing with both resistive and reactive circuits. It just takes a slightly more complex form.)

So no, when you reduce the voltage on a transformer, the current through the windings (on both sides) will also be reduced--unless you change the load, but that is beyond the scope of the question--however, it is related to the second part of this posting.

a motor is anything but simple, it is inductive, and may often be inductive-capacitive. the motor has counter emf which resists the change of the source, and the answer that the current goes down when voltage goes up by your instructor was intended to apply to an inductive circuit like a motor.
As you did, I too suspected that the question was related to a motor. However, your explanation for the current and voltage being inversely related in a motor due to it being an inductive element is incorrect. If that were true, then all inductive devices would violate Ohm's Law--which they don't.

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The issue with motors getting reduced voltage has confused many people I have met that are nevertheless pretty knowledgeable with electricity. The problem is that the increase in current is not directly related to the reduction in voltage, per se.

When you power a motor in an under-voltage condition, as long as the RPM of the motor does not change, then the current will reduce proportionally--following Ohm's Law. However, in reality, when the voltage to a motor is reduced, the motor loses power and its RPM drops. The current in an induction motor winding is related to the RPM of the motor's rotor, as the result of back emf.

So the bottom line of giving a motor an under-voltage condition is that the motor will spin slower, and it is this lower RPM that results in a lower impedance, and therefore, a higher current. It still follows Ohm's Law, but the impedance is dependent on the frequency of the rotor, and is not fixed like we are accustomed to seeing in other circuits.

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Oh, by the way. I have come across some people that are so accustomed to seeing this inverse proportionality with motors, that they have mistakenly come to believe that Ohm's Law, and all circuits, behave this way. It is entirely possible that this test question was derived from this common mistake in thought.
 
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However, in reality, when the voltage to a motor is reduced, the motor loses power and its RPM drops. The current in an induction motor winding is related to the RPM of the motor's rotor
More accurately, it relates to slip frequency.
Whether the current increases or decreases if you reduce its applied voltage depends on how much the voltage reduction is, the extent to which the motor is loaded, and the characteristics of the motor itself.

I did some calculations* and found that for a 5% voltage reduction, the current at half load (i.e. half rated shaft power) was almost unchanged. For a 10% voltage reduction, the current at half load went up some and at one quarter load it went down.

*based on a specific motor for which I have data. Obviously, it won't be the same for all.
 
Are we talking A/C motors or D/C motors. Niether violates Ohms law. The speed of an A/C motor depends on the windings and the frequency of the supply, not the voltage.
 
Are we talking A/C motors or D/C motors. Niether violates Ohms law. The speed of an A/C motor depends on the windings and the frequency of the supply, not the voltage.
Rick mentioned induction motor in post #14.
I assumed the change in speed he mentioned is the small change you get in slip as I mentioned in the subsequent post.
 
090305-0855 EST

It is always worth while to do an energy analysis.

Consider a synchronous motor fed from a constant frequency source and neglect motor losses. This motor will have a constant output RPM independent of input voltage down to a breakaway point. Assume the torque load on the motor is constant. Constant torque at constant speed means constant output power. This in turn means the input power must be constant. Lower the voltage and the in phase current must go up.

Do the same analysis with a DC motor where you adjust the field excitation to maintain constant output speed and you get the same result.

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090305-0855 EST

It is always worth while to do an energy analysis.

Consider a synchronous motor fed from a constant frequency source and neglect motor losses. This motor will have a constant output RPM independent of input voltage down to a breakaway point. Assume the torque load on the motor is constant. Constant torque at constant speed means constant output power. This in turn means the input power must be constant. Lower the voltage and the in phase current must go up.

Do the same analysis with a DC motor where you adjust the field excitation to maintain constant output speed and you get the same result.

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Whoa, you've got your cause and effect a little backward from reality there. :D You have drawn the assumption that the motor output is constant and it's speed doesn't change. What then is the mechanism that causes the current to increase? Do the electrons have little minds that tell them, "Hey this guy put in a Form-1.602 Request for constant power, so we gotta hurry up."
"Damn the resistance, full speed ahead!"
laughing1.gif


Ohm's Law is a law for a reason. That means it always applies to all circuits. If the RPM of the motor doesn't change, and the load on the motor doesn't change, then your assertion must be that some other unknown factor is causing the impedance of the motor to change as a function of voltage.
Do the same analysis with a DC motor where you adjust the field excitation to maintain constant output speed and you get the same result.
Now this one makes more sense, because you have changed the system externally by changing the field winding. But that is not the same as saying current and voltage are inversely proportional. It is due to the change in the field winding, not the change in the voltage.
 
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