am troubleshooting a jaccuzzi whirlpool tub that will show voltage from the water to the waterline i havechecked all bonding connections local power has checked their meter connections at this time i haved pulled a new home run to the tub with only this circut on and the tub unplugged i will read 3.5 to 4 volts on my meter {i drop one lead in the water and put one lead to the waterline under the tub } if i turn on other circuts on this voltage will drop or rise depending on which phase the circut is on if on same phase the voltage is higher opposite phase it is lower my meter is on 200volt not on amps any ideas
voltage in water
- Thread starter eric
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Re: voltage in water
If the tub is fiberglass with PVC drain I would guess you are reading a phantom voltage on a high impedance volt meter. Try a low impedance meter like an old Simpson 260 or put a 1K ohm resistor across the meter leads of your DMM and see what you get.
If the tub is fiberglass with PVC drain I would guess you are reading a phantom voltage on a high impedance volt meter. Try a low impedance meter like an old Simpson 260 or put a 1K ohm resistor across the meter leads of your DMM and see what you get.
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
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Re: voltage in water
I would start with "un"connecting neutrals of diiferent circuits. Can you give us more info on the grounding, bonding and age of this home?
Mike P.
I would start with "un"connecting neutrals of diiferent circuits. Can you give us more info on the grounding, bonding and age of this home?
Mike P.
physis
Senior Member
Re: voltage in water
If you're saying the tub is "unplugged" and you're reading this voltage, I'm curious what you get when it's plugged in?
Some of the smarter guys would know more about it than me but this sounds like (without power applied) you have a great big capacitor. The pipe is a plate, the water is a plate and whatever insulation inbetween is a dielectric.
I may have it all wrong but it's easy to find voltage on a capacitor.
If you're saying the tub is "unplugged" and you're reading this voltage, I'm curious what you get when it's plugged in?
Some of the smarter guys would know more about it than me but this sounds like (without power applied) you have a great big capacitor. The pipe is a plate, the water is a plate and whatever insulation inbetween is a dielectric.
I may have it all wrong but it's easy to find voltage on a capacitor.
Re: voltage in water
i read the same voltage with the motor plugged in and running. their are 5 circuts that directly affect my voltage reading these 5 i am able to follow the home runs of these circuts and have taken their make up apart in two of the home run boxes very slight drop in reading .01 what is also odd is that if the water is filling the tub i show no voltage or if i put my hand in the water and touch the water line. this is 1yr old home 200amp main breaker panel #4 to the water line #6 to the grnd rod # 6 from pump motor to water line # 4 from hot to cold. i have taken all main grnding connections loose and out of the panel and show no reading from the water line to the neutral bus in the panel. i have not felt any tingle in this tub but the home owner says that he does
i read the same voltage with the motor plugged in and running. their are 5 circuts that directly affect my voltage reading these 5 i am able to follow the home runs of these circuts and have taken their make up apart in two of the home run boxes very slight drop in reading .01 what is also odd is that if the water is filling the tub i show no voltage or if i put my hand in the water and touch the water line. this is 1yr old home 200amp main breaker panel #4 to the water line #6 to the grnd rod # 6 from pump motor to water line # 4 from hot to cold. i have taken all main grnding connections loose and out of the panel and show no reading from the water line to the neutral bus in the panel. i have not felt any tingle in this tub but the home owner says that he does
Re: voltage in water
Eric
Try removing the grounding conductor to the tub and see if the voltage goes to zero. Also if the residence has an electric water heater flip the
breaker off. If the heating unit has failed it will "leak" current to the copper piping and you will feel voltage while in the tub.
Eric
Try removing the grounding conductor to the tub and see if the voltage goes to zero. Also if the residence has an electric water heater flip the
breaker off. If the heating unit has failed it will "leak" current to the copper piping and you will feel voltage while in the tub.
physis
Senior Member
Re: voltage in water
To get a tingle in the tub there has to be two energised conductors in contact with the water.
You say the voltage disappears when filling the tub with water. That leads me to beleive that there's no contact between the water in the tub and the equipment ground.
I'm thinking maybe there's a voltage difference between the grounding electrode and the the earth at the tub. How that would get into the tub I don't know.
Are there lights in there with a bad seal?
There's something missing.
To get a tingle in the tub there has to be two energised conductors in contact with the water.
You say the voltage disappears when filling the tub with water. That leads me to beleive that there's no contact between the water in the tub and the equipment ground.
I'm thinking maybe there's a voltage difference between the grounding electrode and the the earth at the tub. How that would get into the tub I don't know.
Are there lights in there with a bad seal?
There's something missing.
Re: voltage in water
The Alaskan pipeline is grounded at different points. The reason is to drain the static charge created by the oil flowing across the metal of the pipe.
I once helped solve a shocking problem at a manufacturing work line. The women workers were getting zapped when touching their work station.
The women were sitting in metal chairs on a concrete floor.
I asked a local college physics professor for advice. He suggested to find out what clothing material was being worn. I asked the supervisor to get this data. It would be kinky for me to ask
The final determination was, the ones wearing nylon or rayon were getting zapped, the ones wearing cotton were not.
New company order...Wear only cotton underclothes.
My point of this is, static charges can be very strange, by appearing at unexpected locations.
The Alaskan pipeline is grounded at different points. The reason is to drain the static charge created by the oil flowing across the metal of the pipe.
I once helped solve a shocking problem at a manufacturing work line. The women workers were getting zapped when touching their work station.
The women were sitting in metal chairs on a concrete floor.
I asked a local college physics professor for advice. He suggested to find out what clothing material was being worn. I asked the supervisor to get this data. It would be kinky for me to ask
The final determination was, the ones wearing nylon or rayon were getting zapped, the ones wearing cotton were not.
New company order...Wear only cotton underclothes.
My point of this is, static charges can be very strange, by appearing at unexpected locations.
Re: voltage in water
thier are no lights in the tub i see a very minute drop in voltage if i un hook the grnding conductor this has become very baffling to me since i have shut every breaker off except the one feeding the tub and this is a homerun i just pulled with no staples in it dont quite know where to go from here dont quite feel right in telling the home owner to get back in
thier are no lights in the tub i see a very minute drop in voltage if i un hook the grnding conductor this has become very baffling to me since i have shut every breaker off except the one feeding the tub and this is a homerun i just pulled with no staples in it dont quite know where to go from here dont quite feel right in telling the home owner to get back in
physis
Senior Member
Re: voltage in water
Eric,
I agree with you about people and electricity sharing water. I couldn't say, go ahead, jump in, either without knowing what's happening.
I'm assuming this came up because the owner was getting zapped. If that is true it seems to me you primarily have an issue with the manufacturer (aside from solving the problem).
On the other hand, if you're dropping a lead in the tub and looking for voltage sources with the other lead (using a high impedance meter) you'll probablly find them. (Not to discount your measurements to the grounded pipe).
You're saying that you have voltage from tub water to ground with or without electrical connection to the tub.
You need to find out whether or not there are conductors in contact with the water that should not be.
Eric,
I agree with you about people and electricity sharing water. I couldn't say, go ahead, jump in, either without knowing what's happening.
I'm assuming this came up because the owner was getting zapped. If that is true it seems to me you primarily have an issue with the manufacturer (aside from solving the problem).
On the other hand, if you're dropping a lead in the tub and looking for voltage sources with the other lead (using a high impedance meter) you'll probablly find them. (Not to discount your measurements to the grounded pipe).
You're saying that you have voltage from tub water to ground with or without electrical connection to the tub.
You need to find out whether or not there are conductors in contact with the water that should not be.
Re: voltage in water
I have shut the main breaker off and my meter reads zero Ihave pulled the meter and the meter reads zero when I first pulled the meter their was a mouse dead with his body on the hot lug and his tail on the neutral lug pulled him off still had a problem Again what puzzles me is that i can have all breakers off except the main and a breaker for the temp homerun to the tub and get that reading on my meter
I have shut the main breaker off and my meter reads zero Ihave pulled the meter and the meter reads zero when I first pulled the meter their was a mouse dead with his body on the hot lug and his tail on the neutral lug pulled him off still had a problem Again what puzzles me is that i can have all breakers off except the main and a breaker for the temp homerun to the tub and get that reading on my meter
physis
Senior Member
Re: voltage in water
Is that with and/or without the tub plugged in?
And am I assuming correcly that your looking at this because the owner's getting bit?
And have you checked for conductivity from plug leads to the water? And earth near tub to water?
If there's electricity in the tub you should be looking at how it's getting in there rather than where it's starting from to get in.
Pump leak?
Is that with and/or without the tub plugged in?
And am I assuming correcly that your looking at this because the owner's getting bit?
And have you checked for conductivity from plug leads to the water? And earth near tub to water?
If there's electricity in the tub you should be looking at how it's getting in there rather than where it's starting from to get in.
Pump leak?
Re: voltage in water
Did you try shutting off all the power ? That is opening the main breaker and then check the voltage ?
If the voltage goes away then it is most probable there is a bad conncetion somewhere in the residence.
If the voltage Does Not go away there is a strong possibility that this is stray voltage caused by the Utility's Neutral connection, just like the 'Farmstead' problems.
On MHs web site he has some reference to this from a New Jersey neighborhood with a similar problem.
W.C
Did you try shutting off all the power ? That is opening the main breaker and then check the voltage ?
If the voltage goes away then it is most probable there is a bad conncetion somewhere in the residence.
If the voltage Does Not go away there is a strong possibility that this is stray voltage caused by the Utility's Neutral connection, just like the 'Farmstead' problems.
On MHs web site he has some reference to this from a New Jersey neighborhood with a similar problem.
W.C
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