VT Configuration on VFD for CT Load

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Have a question regaring a recent project completed. (come in Jraef)

Have completed project at a WWTP with aeration blowers. The blowers are positive displacement type blower or constant torque as I understand it, 50hp, 208VAC, 3phase of course. Contractor provided PowerFlex 400 VFD's which in their literature state are targeted for VT type loads. Below is what I found on A-B website.

1. What applications are a good fit for the PowerFlex 400 Product?

PowerFlex 400 Drives and Packages should be targeted for variable torque fan and pump applications with a focus on the commercial market. The PowerFlex 400 does not have a constant torque or heavy duty rating and is limited to volts/Hz control. The drive has a similar feature set and is competitively priced with competitor products such as the ABB ACH550 and Danforss VLT6000 which also target the commercial market.

Fastforward a year and the client has had a one motor burn up and one getting hot. I'm not getting the full story of why and there of course is some finger pointing going on - but they seem to be coming back to the fact that the drives are set-up for VT application when the blowers are CT and they feel this is the reason the motors took a dive. I contacted A-B and they said they would just need to pick a curve (A170 - Boost Select) for more of a CT load. So my question is would a drive that is more suitable for VT loads, really be the cause of burning a motor up on a CT application? I have done industrial plants where we would have powerflex drives on belt conveyors, fans, pumps, etc. and never heard of a drive being the cause of burning a motor up (for VT versus CT anyways). They are operating down to about 20Hz so my conclusion is I think it is a process problem at that point making the motor work real hard, less cooling, etc. I'm just looking for some feedback on whether a wrong setup on a drive would/can cause a motor to fail.
 
For the VSDs I dealt with the difference between variable torque and constant torque is how they are rated for overload current.
For example, I have a project where the same animal is rated at 22kW VT and 18.5kW CT.
 
Having had a fair share of dealing with WWTP operations, I would ensure the process is checked as well as you alluded to. We had similar issues due to lack of maintenance on the aeration piping and "drops" that are in the tanks. All about being #1 in the "#2" business...
 
Have a question regaring a recent project completed. (come in Jraef)
snipped to make room....
Hmmm... you are going to get me in trouble with somebody somewhere...:sick:
Hang on, this is going to be a long one...

The PF400 design is "optimized" to be a cost effective solution for applying drives to centrifugal loads such as pumps and fans, often referred to as "Variable Torque" loads. Centrifugal machines are called VT because the load, in this case the flow through the pump volute or fan blades, does not change at a linear rate with the speed. The motor load, and by definition the required TORQUE from the motor, varies at the CUBE of the change in speed; it's called "the Affinity Law" in physics. In a "normal" or what is considered a "Constant Torque" load, the torque requirement for moving the load remains the same regardless of speed, so the HP, being defined as XX torque at YY speed, varies with speed at a linear rate, i.e. 1/2 speed = 1/2 HP. But in a VT load since the load is not coupling with the machine as much at lower speeds, the load, and by definition the torque required from the motor, varies at that cube rate. That means for example at 1/2 speed the load on the motor becomes 1/23, so .5 x .5 x .5 or .125, so 1/8th of the HP at 1/2 speed.

How that relates to drives is twofold.
  1. Since reducing speed increases the percentage of power going through the VFD that is lost as switching losses, the toughest thing for a VFD to do is to start a load from a dead stop, then power a fully loaded motor at constant torque at a reduced speed. It has likely had to go into overload briefly to accelerate the load, then is generating the most heat INSIDE of the drive components (Watts loss per amp) afterward. So when designing a drive, that is your worst case scenario and you size the components and cooling to accommodate it. But if you KNOW in advance that the load is VT, then you do NOT need to size the components for that same worst case scenario, it can never happen. Therefore you can use smaller (by comparison) power devices for the same maximum current rating. So a "VT drive" is basically just a de-rated version. Conversely then, if you have an over sized VT drive, it can in theory be the same as a CT drive. In the PowerFlex line, all drives EXCEPT the PF400 are actually like that, you order them as "Normal Duty" or "heavy Duty", which equate to VT and CT respectively. A-B, and most other VFD mfrs now, have started using this terminology because it more accurately describes what you are asking of the drive, most people were unaware of what I just explained about VT and CT loads. Since over 60% of all AC motors used in the world are on pumps, and more on fans, "Normal" is defined as pumps and fans.
  2. The other issue when designing a VT rated drive has to do with the V/Hz ratio. You can save ADDITIONAL energy on an AC motor running at light loading by reducing the amount of current used in creating the magnetic flux inside of the rotor. This is a portion of the motor power consumption that contains a relatively significant amount of losses, and is related to the voltage applied to the windings. If you reduce the voltage, you reduce the magnetization losses. it isn't much, but it is something. This is the same basic concept that is over blown by the "energy saver" scammers. But inside of a VFD, it is inherently easy to accomplish, you don't have to add any hardware, you just tweak the software. The drawback to doing this is a loss of torque, so on a CT type of load, you do NOT want to do this, otherwise you are increasing the slip in the motor and making it work harder, which can increase the current unnecessarily for the work it is performing. you might think, "But wait, you said the HP is going down with speed, so current is going down as well, so the losses are going down too and the motor will run cooler." Generally true, but at the SAME time, the cooling fans are moving less air and the motor heat is not being removed as effectively. So any INCREASE in motor heat relative to applied load can get trapped inside the motor and cause damage. If however it is a VT load again, then the rate at which the motor loading is dropping is so dramatically higher than the motor's capacity anyway, you can once again safely apply this reduced flux concept to save a bit more energy in pump and fan applications. So how this is accomplished is via tweaking the ratio of voltage and frequency, the "V/Hz ratio" that the drive sends to the motor. In a CT application, this is fixed in order for the drive to maintain full torque (hence the "constant" torque name). For example a 460V motor puts out 60Hz for full speed, so the ratio is 460/60 or 7.6 V/Hz. That ratio is maintained through the speed changes, so at 50% speed, you are at 230V (230/7.6 = 30Hz). But in a VT application, you can LOWER that V/Hz ratio when the speed is reduced in order to save a little more energy by reducing losses in the motor. Sure you will lose torque, but remember, in a VT application you don't NEED that torque as the speed goes down, because the load is dropping off at that cubed rate! So why not take advantage!
Now we come to that earlier statement of mine "all drives EXCEPT the PF400". BECAUSE the PF400's purpose was to directly compete with OTHER lower cost drives that were dedicated to VT loads, the PF400 is doing two things related to the above issues. It is lower cost BECAUSE it is not expected to have to handle the rigors of a CT load, meaning the components are not sized the same, AND it comes pre-programmed for VT loads in that the V/Hz ratio is NOT linear as it would need to be in a CT/Heavy Duty drive.

So when you called the Tech Support line and they told you to change the setting in A170, they were taking care of issue #2, returning the V/Hz ratio to being linear so that the motor can produce Constant Torque at all speeds as it needs to in what I assume is a PD (Positive Displacement) blower.

Now to answer your other question, could the fact that it is a VT drive have caused damage to the motor?
Maybe.
If they left the drive settings at the factory default (as must have been the case if you changed it), then when you reduced the speed to 20% of rated, you were ALSO reducing the magnetic flux in the motor at a higher rate. That then would reduce the torque that the motor put out. But the PD blower CONNECTED to that motor was still requiring the SAME torque that it did at full speed. So what happens? The loss of torque becomes an increase in motor slip, which means, as I described above, the motor is pulling MORE amps per HP than it needs to, so more watts losses INSIDE of the motor relative to loading. But even though the load (HP) is reduced, because the motor's ability to cool itself is at the SAME TIME reduced with speed, it is possible that this caused the motor to cook itself.

By the way, you MAY have a potential problem with the VFD as well. Now that you have tweaked the V/Hz ratio back to being for CT loads, the losses inside of the VFD will be going up as well. Remember, this drive was not DESIGNED to handle that. If the VFD was over sized with respect to the motor, then that's OK. But guess what, 50HP at 230V is the LARGEST size for the PF400, so there is no way this drive could have been over sized. In fact, given that is it 208V, and small margin of safety that you may have had is ALREADY consumed in that issue. This drive is rated for 145A, with virtually no overload capability (110% for 60 seconds, again because it was designed only for VT loads) at 45C (104F inside of the enclosure), only 130A if it is 50C (122F). A 208V 50HP motor FLA is 143A per the NEC, yours hopefully is lower. But because it is a CT load connected to it, this may be a problem. How this can relate to potential motor damage is not clear, but it is possible that they knew this at commissioning and compensated for it. Check the programming of Function A182, the Drive Overload Settings. This function tells the VFD what to do if it detects that it's transistors are getting too hot because of loading. The factory default is "0", meaning take no action, because (again) as a VT drive this should never happen. If they had an issue with this at commissioning, they may have set A182 to 2, 3 or 4 as a way to protect the drive. What that then means is that if the drive detects that the transistors are overloaded, it will fold back the Current Limit setting, fold back the speed reference, or both, depending on those settings. That then, combined with the issue of the improper V/Hz setting, can exacerbate the problems by artificially reducing the output even more than you thought it was.
 
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As a practical matter, the reason you put a VFD on a motor is because it is not going to be running at full speed most of the time, so that gives you some wiggle room.

The PF400 is the same basic drive as the PF40 (I think) just cheapened up a little to support the HVAC market that is notoriously cheap.

I suppose it is possible that the drive could have contributed to the demise of the motor due to the V/Hz setting issue, but it seems somewhat remote.
 
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more 2 cents: YES, this very well can overheat your motor at 20hz.

Jraef gave a very complete description of why. I would like to simplify his reply to easy to understand answer on his part 2. Ask ur self what happens when you run a 230v motor on 208v? Its current draw goes up. A CT load on a VT v/hz curve drive does EXACTLY this at lower frequency output. It starves your motor of required voltage to make the SAME magnetic field it needs to maintain torque for rated current, so the current draw goes up as Jraef showed. REsult will be excessive heat in the motor. Simple.

As Boeseker said, the typical reason a VT drive is lower cost than a CT drive is the MAX overload rating (current) is LESS, so lower cost IGBTs can be used. Jraef alluded to some beliefs in his #1 reply to why they are lower cost, but some of us do not adhere to it as it is questionable logic. But irregardless, the reason a VT drive is lower cost than a CT drive is of no bearing to you burning up motors: it is likely a simple case of starving your motor. If ABB gave you a parameter to more linearize the v/hz curve, do it ASAP. Google VT vs CT and read up and you will get more background confirming & understand Jraef's #2.
 
It is not just a case of a CT versus VT drive. Why blame only the electical?

It is likely a combination of the v/hz ratio (the VFD), the current required to supply the load (the process design), the reduced cooling effect of low speeds (the choice of motors).
 
Although it CAn be other things too, my reply was yes it CAN be very likely caused by VT vs CT (which IS v/hz incorrect ratio), but not 100% sure that is the cause. That said, I have never seen a vfd application where a motor cannot provide full nameplate rated torque at 20hz (1/3 of base speed). Of course, this MAY be a first for me in 37 years so I will not say no way. But if OP says load torque is same at 20hz as 60hz, and the motor survives at 60hz, then until I see really off the wall proof that this motor cannot provide full nameplate torque at simply 1/3 base speed, I will discount it as a viable reason.
 
VT Configuration on VFD for CT Load

Thank you all for the reply and feedback. It does make sense that a drive more suited for a VT load could alter the V/Hz ratio to save a little more juice on low ends, and in this situation could affect the motor. I think when this is said in done, it will be a combination of the motor/drive setup plus some process concerns that we are still looking into.

NOW - you must be a mind reader Jraef becuase we got a call last night one of the drives failed. What the definition of fail is I don't know, maybe it just tripped out but the point is that it is already having an affect on the VFD. FML
 
more 2 cents: YES, this very well can overheat your motor at 20hz.

Where did the OP say he was running at 20 Hz for extended periods of time? It is going to have to sit at such a low speed for a long time to hurt a decent motor. A few minutes or hours a day probably is not going to do it.

I am curious just how long it stays at such a low speed.

It seems unlikely anyone would design an application like this with a motor/blower/vfd combination where it would run this slow for long.

I wonder who commissioned the drive that did not know enough in the first place to set the parameters correctly.
 
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Where did the OP say he was running at 20 Hz for extended periods of time? It is going to have to sit at such a low speed for a long time to hurt a decent motor. A few minutes or hours a day probably is not going to do it.

I am curious just how long it stays at such a low speed.

It seems unlikely anyone would design an application like this with a motor/blower/vfd combination where it would run this slow for long.

I wonder who commissioned the drive that did not know enough in the first place to set the parameters correctly.

Most likely the equipment vendor. The blowers were likely in the Division 11 Equipment specifications and were required to be supplied as a package with the drives, the EC would just be resonsible for providing the branch circuit and installation. I see that a lot on "brown trout farm" projects. What the consultant is usually trying to get at is a performance spec rather than a component spec so that there is one place to point a finger if it doesn't work right. But if I had to guess, the WWTP had a requirement that all VFDs be AB so that they didn't have to retrain the maintenance people. So the equipment vendor went as cheap as he could and bought a PF400, but likely never asked anyone if it was appropriate. The reason I think this is because I suffer the consequences of this kind of thing every month at least. I have one right now where someone put a PF400 on a grit screen conveyor, same issue because that too is a CT load, but at least he had the foresight to change the V/Hz pattern so that the motor is fine. The VFD is tripping out on VFD overload however because it cannot handle the CT loading. In this case, they can put a larger drive on it to compensate because it is 480V and only 25HP, but everyone is arguing over who has tp pay for it.

PS, aeration blowers provide oxygen for the "bugs", so are often controlled by a feedback loop from disolved O2 sensors in the digester tank or pond. So depending on flow and activity of the bugs, they may run at low speed for weeks, but need to be able to kick into high speed after a storm or something that causes a lot more solids flow, like a local chili cook off! (No joke, I did work at the Reno/Sparks treatment plant on influent pumps, they joke about the fact that their solids content JUMPS after their annual chili cook off event!)
 
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VT Configuration on VFD for CT Load

Jraef - exactly. Blowers and Motors provided by equipment supplier, VFD in Elec Contractors scope, never saw shop drawings. All AB VFD's were requested with Rockwell PLC/SCADA system.

It's one of those situations that the blowers were sized for capacity that will take place in a years time. Also, at night time, they need to pull back the blowers to 20Hz or so for hours on end due to the low inflow.
 
But if you KNOW in advance that the load is VT, then you do NOT need to size the components for that same worst case scenario, it can never happen. Therefore you can use smaller (by comparison) power devices for the same maximum current rating.
Or the same devices and declare a higher rating for the drive used for a VT application than a CT application as I stated in post #2.
 
Where did the OP say he was running at 20 Hz for extended periods of time? It is going to have to sit at such a low speed for a long time to hurt a decent motor. A few minutes or hours a day probably is not going to do it.
....

OP:
...They are operating down to about 20Hz...

My YES answer is taken out of context here: I did not say running 20hz is a problem - in fact I offered that just about ALL motors should be able to run at nameplate torque at 20hz wihtout external cooling - I replied that 20 hz operation of a CT load is his very possible problem IN HIS VT V/HZ MODE since it will be starving the motor causing the current to go very high.

Now that a vfd blew, I would wager it overheated its output IGBTs - again due to overcurrent due to low VT voltage at this speed.
 
OP:

My YES answer is taken out of context here: I did not say running 20hz is a problem - in fact I offered that just about ALL motors should be able to run at nameplate torque at 20hz wihtout external cooling - I replied that 20 hz operation of a CT load is his very possible problem IN HIS VT V/HZ MODE since it will be starving the motor causing the current to go very high.

Now that a vfd blew, I would wager it overheated its output IGBTs - again due to overcurrent due to low VT voltage at this speed.

don't these vfds have temp sensors on the semiconductor heat sinks?
 
don't these vfds have temp sensors on the semiconductor heat sinks?
Yes they do, which is what I was mentioning in my earlier looooong post, which likely was so long that it got lost.

Check the programming of Function A182, the Drive Overload Settings. This function tells the VFD what to do if it detects that it's transistors are getting too hot because of loading. The factory default is "0", meaning take no action, because (again) as a VT drive this should never happen. If they had an issue with this at commissioning, they may have set A182 to 2, 3 or 4 as a way to protect the drive. What that then means is that if the drive detects that the transistors are overloaded, it will fold back the Current Limit setting, fold back the speed reference, or both, depending on those settings. That then, combined with the issue of the improper V/Hz setting, can exacerbate the problems by artificially reducing the output even more than you thought it was.

What I did not mention was setting 1, which is the factory default setting to trip off line. Since it seems now that it did not, that probably confirms my suspicion that they DID have trouble with this at commissioning, so they reprogrammed this function to 2, 3 or 4, which would artificially LOWER the speed to attempt to reduce the strain on the IGBTs. But because the load is CT and the VT setting was enabled, this would have actually made matters WORSE and the problems would cascade. Again, the drive cannot know that it has been misapplied, it just does what it is told to do.
 
OP:

My YES answer is taken out of context here: I did not say running 20hz is a problem - in fact I offered that just about ALL motors should be able to run at nameplate torque at 20hz wihtout external cooling - I replied that 20 hz operation of a CT load is his very possible problem IN HIS VT V/HZ MODE since it will be starving the motor causing the current to go very high.
With constant V/f operation, the motor can provide rated torque at any speed up to base speed without exceeding rated current.
 
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