Waco revisited:

[rattus]

Remember the incident where the preacher was electrocuted while standing in the baptistry pool in Waco, TX? The Dallas News reports that the widow is suing the contractor. They claim the heater was turned on dry which damaged the heating element allowing it to leak current into the water. Don't know if this is fact or fiction. No question though, the installation was unsafe.

However, if the heating unit had been connected with grounded copper pipe, or if a GFCI had been used, I think the preacher would still be preaching.

 

[iwire]

I just read not more than a week ago that the case had been settled for unspecified damages.

I will try to find the info I saw.

 

[iwire]

Here is a link with the story

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=state&id=4813310

 

[kingpb]

Kind of ironic that a pastor's family is suing someone.

I guess they forgot to read the passage about forgive and forget, turn the other check, and christians are not supposed to sue each other.

 

[charlie b]

Setting the tragic aspects of this story aside, the lawsuit was a travesty of justice. If I go only on what the news article stated, this was caused by an operator error, not by the installer. If the heating elements were overheated, and if the pool was then filled, I have to wonder why the heating elements were even turned on without water in the pool.

 

[tallgirl]

Setting the tragic aspects of this story aside, the lawsuit was a travesty of justice. If I go only on what the news article stated, this was caused by an operator error, not by the installer. If the heating elements were overheated, and if the pool was then filled, I have to wonder why the heating elements were even turned on without water in the pool.

I think such a foreseeable operator error shouldn't result in death.

People get into baptism fonts (and mikvaot -- let's not forget the people who invented the things in the first place ). Some of them are heated. Turning on the heater before filling (or just plain being broken ...) is a foreseeable failure path. Electricity is potentially fatal when mixed with water and people. QED -- the installation should have taken that type of failure into consideration.

 

[charlie b]

Do you have an interlock on your electric water heater, to prevent you from turning on the heat when it is dry? How about your electric kettle? Your hot tub? Do you have an interlock to prevent you from turning on your electric stove?s burner when there is no pot (or an empty pot) on the burner?

This is not the electrical contractor?s fault. It is far more likely to have been an operator?s fault. But if there were a need to have a way to prevent turning on the heat when the pool was empty, then that should have been provided by the manufacturer, not the installer.

 

[iwire]

Do you have an interlock on your electric water heater, to prevent you from turning on the heat when it is dry? How about your electric kettle? Your hot tub? Do you have an interlock to prevent you from turning on your electric stove?s burner when there is no pot (or an empty pot) on the burner?

No, but those items will be grounded.

If I recall the real problem was that the EC did not properly ground the unit.

I am looking for the info, but I wanted to post before we got to far here. :smile:

 

[iwire]

Check here

http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Tragedy_Strikes_Texas_Church.PDF

 

[charlie b]

This is certainly off topic, and I certainly do not wish to diminish the severity of the tragedy. But I just remembered something, and it might not be commonly known (at least not to people who were not watching the news in April of 1970). A very similar failure (i.e., heat turned on too long, causing damage to wiring), was the underlying cause of the explosion in the oxygen tank onboard Apollo 13.

The tank had been overheated sometime earlier. The tank was being heated in order to drive out any moisture. The reason the tank overheated was that the relay that should have turned off the heat had been replaced with one of the wrong voltage classification. The relay burned up, and thus it did not turn off the heater, and thus the internal wiring to the fans (that stirred up the oxygen in the tank) lost their insulation. That is how a spark was able to be created inside the tank, when Jack Swigert hit the switch to ?stir the tanks.?

 

[stray spark]

interlock

interlock

Do you have an interlock on your electric water heater, to prevent you from turning on the heat when it is dry? How about your electric kettle? Your hot tub? Do you have an interlock to prevent you from turning on your electric stove?s burner when there is no pot (or an empty pot) on the burner?

This is not the electrical contractor?s fault. It is far more likely to have been an operator?s fault. But if there were a need to have a way to prevent turning on the heat when the pool was empty, then that should have been provided by the manufacturer, not the installer.

We have a cow float (a large stainless steel tank that you put a cow in and fill it with warm water) on a farm. It has two 2500w heating elements that help heat the water. the guys kept turning it on before it was full of water. What we did was install a water sensor interlocked with the contactor so that no water, no heating elements. works slick. I was simple and would work on almost any piece of equipment.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We try to treat these the same as we would a swimming pool. We had one installed and right next to it they installed a steel cross that was about 3 stories tall, went through the roof and had a footing right next to the pool and the contractor couldn't understand why I wanted that bonded too.

 

[rattus]

Implied Warranty:

Implied Warranty:

Setting the tragic aspects of this story aside, the lawsuit was a travesty of justice. If I go only on what the news article stated, this was caused by an operator error, not by the installer. If the heating elements were overheated, and if the pool was then filled, I have to wonder why the heating elements were even turned on without water in the pool.

Charlie, I think the legal principle of implied warranty applies here. If one purchases an item, one expects it to work properly. Furthermore, one expects the item to be reasonaly safe--if not idiotproof, then foolproof. The EC could have made this installation safer.

Now, if we use plastic pipes to connect an ungrounded water heater, would it be possible to energize both the hot and cold water streams with a leaky heating element?

 

[foqnc]

According to the PDF file iwire posted a link to, the tub had NO ground and was not GFCI protected. When did code require grounding? This sounds like and older installation. If it was code compliant at the time of install, how can the contractor be at fault. Or does this mean everyone should re-trace all there installations to bring up to code?

 

[tony_psuee]

What are implied warranties?

​

Two kinds of warranties are implied by law. These implied warranties, when present, create buyer's rights and seller/manufacturer obligations in addition to those under any express warranty.

An implied warranty of merchantability (general fitness) is an implied promise that the product is fit for the ordinary purposes for which it is used (i.e., "This car is fit for passenger transportation.") This implied warranty is present in sales of most new and used products by merchants (not private sale). Under Song Beverly this warranty is present in all sales of new consumer goods and those sales of used goods which come with a written express warranty.

An implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is an implied promise that the product is fit for the particular purpose of the buyer (i.e., "This paint will adhere to the sample surface you provided.")
rattus,

I don?t see how implied warranty comes into play in this situation. The way I understand it based on the explanation above, the implied warranty would be the heaters will warm the water in the baptismal pool they are installed in. Just like with the paint, it will adhere, not it will adhere and not contain some chemical that could cause health problems in future. Should the automobile industry be held liable because they sell cars that don?t have a means to prevent operation by a drunken driver?

To me, the big question was asked by fognc, and it was ?if the installation was code compliant at the time it was done.? If so, then IMHO, the contractor did make it safe. How is he supposed to make it safer?

Tony