Was I wrong?

[ishium 80439]

I had a kitchen remodel going on. We finished the rough and the HO asked me to fire a circuit or two up for him as it was going to be a few weeks before he was ready for finish (HO acting as GC, no concept of scheduling) and he wanted his micro and a counter top circuit up. I explained that generally we don't fire anything up at rough but I would make an exception.

I went to the panel to tie in the new micro circuit and of course the neutral/ ground bar was all filled up (old GE panel). As I was not expecting to terminate anything that day I did not have an additional ground bar with me. I knew we would be back within a few weeks so I doubled up the N and G with wires already terminated and left a bunch of wire in the panel (ie didn't square it off or route it correctly).

My journeyman went back to finish the job and gave me a giant ration of smack talk about sloppy work etc. I know that doubling up in the lugs was not OK but I rationalized it knowing that it was not going to be a permanent installation.

So my question is what would you have done? Was I totally out of line for performing this work even though it was on a short term basis or does my journeyman need to relax and keep things in perspective? Think about your own work and be honest.

 

[charlietuna]

Sorry but i would have done the same thing--think how many doubled up nuetrals and grounds we see everyday! But thats just me...

 

[growler]

I explained that generally we don't fire anything up at rough but I would make an exception.

If I can put it on a GFCI breaker then I may make the circuit live but I don't trust people not to drive nails in cables. That's the only way I can think of to make the circuit safe.

The ground doesn't worry me because it was not permanent. Would just make a note so that the journeyman didn't miss it on the trim. Even when I finish a job I make notes so as not to forget anything.

 

[480sparky]

A simple solution would have been to pigtail them together.

 

[infinity]

You could have removed several EGC's and spliced on a tail to free up some holes in the neutral bar.

 

[ishium 80439]

You could have removed several EGC's and spliced on a tail to free up some holes in the neutral bar.

That's a good idea that never occured to me.

 

[Kdog76]

Double it up OR pigtail either way it's TEMPORARY! Your journeyman should not you give you any smack talk about temp stuff! Hey, that's the only time we're really allowed off our leash for that kind of stuff. Even our local AHJ will let me do flying splices & such if it's TEMPORARY.
I PERSONALLY would double up equipment grounds (not triple), and pigtail splice the grounded conductors, for one under the lug. But honestly, yes I've doubled the grounded conductors a time or two.

 

[nakulak]

I can see both sides of this issue. The bs can be dispensed with (tell him to shut it), but the fact is he is more right than you are. The reason isn't because its temporary, the reason is because the people that come behind you shouldn't have to be expected to take apart improperly wired stuff and fix it, and the reason why is because they might forget or you might forget or someone might miss it. Example, I landed some neutrals for some 3phase 480 heaters together (3 on a lug) because, just like you, I didn't have the lugs on me, the gc and hvac guy were breathing down my neck about an inspection blah blah blah, and guess what - that store is open and those damn things are still put in wrong. I learned my lesson, and its better to just do it right or don't do it (IMSHIO)

 

[Kdog76]

There is a time & place for temporary wiring. Yes do it right. Can you always do it right, right away? I can't. I need the temp wiring to be there to allow me to backfeed a 100 amp main breaker panel I install as part of a new 100 amp service. Got to leave that old 60 amp fuse block to feed my new panel so I can transfer circuits, not leaving the customer out of power for days on end. Once circuits are transferred and the new service is hooked up, I can take out my 8-3 romex that was flying out of the old 60.
I'm not so quick to judge against temp stuff (esp. my own). IMO, anybody that comes in after me on a job w/ temp wiring that I put in should be able to see what I did & why I did it, if not they shouldn't be there. 10 times out of 10, however, I WILL verify that it gets connected permanently.

 

[electricmanscott]

I would have, and have done, the same thing as OP. No biggie.

 

[tryinghard]

Read the panel door, many bus' alow more than one conductor up to #10 and if they do it's code compliant.

 

[roger3829]

I have done the same thing many times myself and will probably do it again for a temp. install.

There are many ways that situation could have been handeled depending on how much time you wanted to spend on "tempoary wiring".

If the journeyman works for you he only should be making small comments and chewing you a new #$@%^.

 

[electricmanscott]

Read the panel door, many bus' alow more than one conductor up to #10 and if they do it's code compliant.

This applies only to grounding conductors not grounded (neutral) conductors.

 

[ishium 80439]

It was the grounding and grounded to gether under one lug so it was not code compliant.

In terms of the j-man giving me grief I am honestly trying to figure out how much was good natured "chop" busting and how much was serious. I was a little taken back that he even mentioned it instead of just grumbling about having to sweep up after me and getting it done. I'm OK with him calling me out when I do something that's not up to snuff, I'm not perfect and a second set of eyes can help. For something so minor (IMO) though, I'm surprised he wasted his time.

 

[ohm]

That's a good idea that never occured to me.

Good method on EGC's but be careful not to lift any white wires on energized circuits..they may be MWBC and a whole bunch of high dollar electronics may go up in smoke.

 

[wawireguy]

Where does the NEC prohibit putting the neutrals and grounds under one lug if the lugs are rated for multiple conductors? I don't do it as standard practice but I want to check this out and have no idea where to look.

 

[tryinghard]

This applies only to grounding conductors not grounded (neutral) conductors.

Really, how so?

 

[steelersman]

I see no big deal in doing what you did. I've done it and I'm sure almost everyone here has done it. Don't sweat it. I think the Journeyman was either having a bad day and taking it out on you or he is just a grumpy bastard.

 

[JohnJ0906]

Where does the NEC prohibit putting the neutrals and grounds under one lug if the lugs are rated for multiple conductors? I don't do it as standard practice but I want to check this out and have no idea where to look.

408.41

Many panel ground/neutral bars are rated for multiple EGCs, but you have to check the chart on the panel.

 

[CopperTone]

i wouldn't have taken so much flack from some one that works for me. it clearly was temporary due to you not having the correct parts and the way you did it. - what should he care - he gets paid by the hour.
If you did have the correct parts it would have been in your best interest to do it right the first time and not have to pay someone to do it right the second time.

I like to cut in the panel and all breakers on roughs quite a bit - charge more for the rough and less to do on the finish - but it does depend on if you have to get out of there to get to the next job and not have time. All depends on if they need temp lighting or power and what time of day it is. if there is an hour or so left in the day, I'll kill the day cutting in the panel.

I've even gone so far as to splice through receptacles and test/turn on circuits to confirm they work properly and there are no shorts before it gets boarded up.