Was SE cable 2-2-2 bare neutral ever allowed for sub panel dwelling?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
I was wondering if SE cable 2-2-2 no neutral just a bare ground was ever allowed as the feeder from the Milti- meter tennant MSB outside to the tennant load center 20 feet inside the idividual units.

I ran across a old apartment building that is wired this way. Never seen any done like this before. It's old and before my time.

Just wanted to know if it ever was legit?
Up to what code was it allowed?
 
SE cable was and still is allowed by the NEC for use as service entrance conductors, in many parts of the country it is still a common method of installing a service, what might not be allowed which is not in the NEC is the distance to the service disconnect, some areas still allow up to 15' some say 5', the NEC does not give a distance and never has, remember service conductors are not protected by OCPDs even the fuse on the primary side of the utility transformer can not be depended upon protecting the service entrance conductors, if they Short out they will in most cases burn free which can be a very big fire hazard if located inside of a building.
 
hurk27 said:
SE cable was and still is allowed by the NEC for use as service entrance conductors, in many parts of the country it is still a common method of installing a service, what might not be allowed which is not in the NEC is the distance to the service disconnect, some areas still allow up to 15' some say 5', the NEC does not give a distance and never has, remember service conductors are not protected by OCPDs even the fuse on the primary side of the utility transformer can not be depended upon protecting the service entrance conductors, if they Short out they will in most cases burn free which can be a very big fire hazard if located inside of a building.
Click to expand...

Wayne, The OP is asking about the use of this cable as a feeder not SE conductors.

I would guess it has not been permitted to use the bare wire as a neutral and EGC since maybe sometime in the 50's but really have no idea.
 
curt swartz said:
Wayne, The OP is asking about the use of this cable as a feeder not SE conductors.

I would guess it has not been permitted to use the bare wire as a neutral and EGC since maybe sometime in the 50's but really have no idea.
Click to expand...

Oh My bad:ashamed1:

Guess I should have read a little closer, I just saw Meter lol

I have seen many older apartments done this way, just don't know if or when a 3-wire feeder was ever allowed other then for a detached garage?
 
To confirm, Yes these are feeders, after the Apartment 100 amp Main. Then approx 75 feet to the load center in the interior of the apartment unit.


The big question is how does one handle a panel changeout if it was legit at the time. Does one replace the feeder?
These apartments are condo, so the wire runs through another owners ceiling.

Thanks for the Input
 
Sierrasparky said:
To confirm, Yes these are feeders, after the Apartment 100 amp Main. Then approx 75 feet to the load center in the interior of the apartment unit.


The big question is how does one handle a panel changeout if it was legit at the time. Does one replace the feeder?
These apartments are condo, so the wire runs through another owners ceiling.

Thanks for the Input
Click to expand...

I would bring it up to code. Some areas will allow you to keep it but I will not do it without making it compliant
 
Sierrasparky said:
To confirm, Yes these are feeders, after the Apartment 100 amp Main. Then approx 75 feet to the load center in the interior of the apartment unit.


The big question is how does one handle a panel changeout if it was legit at the time. Does one replace the feeder?
These apartments are condo, so the wire runs through another owners ceiling.

Thanks for the Input
Click to expand...

Does the existing wire run through the ceiling or through an attic area?

Usually I find the feeders in these complexes either run through a common basement/crawlspace or a common attic that is accessible from somewhere.


Did one of these a few months ago and I was required to bring it up to present day code. that was a "fun" crawlspace!!
 
Sierrasparky said:
To confirm, Yes these are feeders, after the Apartment 100 amp Main. Then approx 75 feet to the load center in the interior of the apartment unit.
Click to expand...

You are pulling a permit under TODAY's code.
The Issue is not what ever was allowed !

Ask the advice of the AJH,

but figure on bringing it up to current code.
 
Last edited:
masterinbama said:
It was legal at one time but I cannot tell you exactly when it changed. Memory tells me 1980's
Click to expand...

I read it twice before deciding to ask you this...

Are you thinking of an SE cable with bare neutral from the service disconnect to a sub panel being legal, or from a meter socket to the service disconnect located inside being legal? The second I think was legal, or at least widely accepted at one time, I don't think the first was ever legal.
 
Strathead said:
I read it twice before deciding to ask you this...

Are you thinking of an SE cable with bare neutral from the service disconnect to a sub panel being legal, or from a meter socket to the service disconnect located inside being legal? The second I think was legal, or at least widely accepted at one time, I don't think the first was ever legal.
Click to expand...

The OPer cleared up that these are in fact feeders not service entrance conductors in post 9.

But to your response these SE conductors are still allowed for use as service entrance conductors from a meter to the first means of disconnect which is the service disconnect even today, as a feeder will require a 4-wire or SER type cable which is similar but has two hots an insulated neutral then the bare EGC which is what should have been run for feeders, I have seen similar installations where SE was used as feeders and since it was pre-existing I left it up to the owner to battle it out with the inspector as it was his money to pay for the change, but I never heard back on it so I guess the inspector let it ride? it was in service for over 40 years like that.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I know it should be replaced if the owner has the funds to do so.
What I really want to know if it was ever permissable say around the 1960's
There are many things that are code when they were built and we call those existing non-conforming. That type of thing is usually up to the owner to desire to repair.The problem is that where does one stop the upgrading.
However something that was never code at the time is never considered existing non-conforming as it was bootlegged from the get go.
 
hurk27 said:
The OPer cleared up that these are in fact feeders not service entrance conductors in post 9.

But to your response these SE conductors are still allowed for use as service entrance conductors from a meter to the first means of disconnect which is the service disconnect even today, as a feeder will require a 4-wire or SER type cable which is similar but has two hots an insulated neutral then the bare EGC which is what should have been run for feeders, I have seen similar installations where SE was used as feeders and since it was pre-existing I left it up to the owner to battle it out with the inspector as it was his money to pay for the change, but I never heard back on it so I guess the inspector let it ride? it was in service for over 40 years like that.
Click to expand...

The problem with type, you can't read my mind. When I said "inside" I meant further than back to back. My house, for example was built in the 1970's the meter (no disconnect) on the back wall, outside, and the panel (with service disconnecting means) dead center laundry room, 30 feet away. Fed from an SE cable. That does not comply with Service disconnecting location in 230.70 so, the cable would not be acceptable if the situation was fixed. Even as I write this I see that I was looking at it backwards, because it isn't the cable that was wrong, it is the disconnect location, so the cable would only be wrong if I were correcting the real violation. I did correct all of this in my house, but it is a typical installation in my area, during the 1970's
 
It has been a long time, but I think we were still doing that in NC in the 70's. I worked on a few apt buildings with 4 to 6 gang meter bases. We ran 3 wire SE, bare neutral to indoor panels. Usually 100 amp panels with 2/2/2 SE cable. This would be in Wilson, NC, 1976 and 1977. Anyone here from that time & place, correct me if I am wrong. I worked for Watson at the time, at their Wilson division.
 
Sierrasparky said:
Thanks for the replies.

I know it should be replaced if the owner has the funds to do so.
What I really want to know if it was ever permissable say around the 1960's
There are many things that are code when they were built and we call those existing non-conforming. That type of thing is usually up to the owner to desire to repair.The problem is that where does one stop the upgrading.
However something that was never code at the time is never considered existing non-conforming as it was bootlegged from the get go.
Click to expand...

Nope, not by NEC in the same building, AFAIK.

NEC 1937 said:
3382. Use. Approved service-entrance cable (Types SE and ASE) may be used in interior wiring systems if all the conductors of the cable are of rubber-covered type; but if without individual insulation on the grounded conductor may be used only for range circuits, or as feeders from a master service cabinet to supply other buildings, or as service conductors for such other buildings, if the following conditions are met.
a. The cable has a final non-metallic outer covering.
b. The supply is alternating current not exceeding 150 volts to ground.
c. There is at least on ground at the transformer or elsewhere in addition to the ground at the service.
Click to expand...

Similar wording and perceived intent in 1959, 1962 (funny, they spelled dryer 'drier' that year), and 1968.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top