WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

[roc]

What are your thoughts on a residential water main riser pipe being placed inches away from the side of an electric service panel.

The NEC code requires a 30" wide area at the panel, or the width of the panel if greater (in addition to the clear areas in front, above, and below) per 110.26(A). However, these are access provisions and not lateral clearances (if that exists).

Seems like a sweating water main is the last thing you want right next to a service panel. If there is a fault to the panel without adequate bonding (I know, that?s a big one but it happens) seems like it?s a funeral waiting to happen, since an unwitting homeowner might very well touch the panel and water pipe. It seems to create a damp panel location too (312.2), but I think that is a bit of a stretch.

Any thoughts or code sections that would apply?

Rob

 

[iwire]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

If it was to run over the top of the panel you might cite 110.26(F)(1)(a) but that can be overcome with 110.26(F)(1)(b).

The 30" width requirement is not necessarily centered on the panel, it can start at one edge of the panel. Like a panel mounted tight in a corner.

If it is condensation that bothers you put some of that black pipe insulation on the pipe to prevent the condensation.

 

[hbiss]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Funny you should mention this. Just the other day I was looking at the same situation in my own house.

In my experience, ALOT of times the water service is brought in at the same location as the electrical service entrance. Many times the piping, water meter, shut off valves, etc. are located close to the panel. This may make bonding a piece of cake but being so close bothers me.

In this area we have water pressure regulators. Each service has one installed right after the meter. In my case it is in a vertical run which is within inches of the left side of the panel.

One morning a few years ago I discovered about an inch of water in the basement. Apparently the diaphram in the pressure regulator developed a hole in it, water filled the bonnet and shot a stream out of a 1/8 inch weep hole. Furtunately the hole happened to be facing down and the stream was directed away from the panel. This must have been going on for quite awhile to produce that much water which made a real mess.

I also remember a commercial job many years ago with a 400 amp 3 phase service. Again the water service was located next to the CT cabinet. The bottom of the water meter blew out. Fortunately the building was built on grade with a loading dock that looked like Niagra Falls!

 

[pierre]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

If the water main pipe is not as large in diameter as the panel depth, then 110.26(A)(2)Width of Working Space is not compromised, because the provisions are for work space in front of the equipment. IF you are nervous, why not put a barrier of some kind between the pipe and panel enclosure?

Pierre

 

[roc]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Bob and Pierre ... excellent suggestions! ...

The 30" wide access clearance required by 110.26(A)(2) isn't compromised by the pipe right next to the side of the panel, as this is available considering the panel width and the clear area on the other side. The top, bottom, and front areas of the panel (starting at a panel edge, and extending away from the pipe) are clear.

I think what was rubbing me the wrong way was 110.34(F) which states that "pipes or ducts foreign to the electrical installation and requiring periodic maintenance or whose malfunction would endanger the operation of the electrical system shall not be located in the vicinity of the service equipment".

So it seems the pipe shouldn't even be near the panel, because if the pipe did fail it would endanger the panel. Plus there is the additional shock hazard. If there was a fault to the panel without adequate bonding the whole area would be a hazard, particularly that pipe. Just don?t see that covered anywhere.

For an existing install maybe add the black pipe insulation, covered with some larger split PVC pipe zip tied back together over the insulation (with a full half facing the panel of course). Maybe kill (save?) 2 birds with one stone ...

But for a new install, would that likely be written up? Seems like it should.

Rob

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

110.34(F) only applies to services with a voltage over 600 volts.
Don

 

[hbiss]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

IF you are nervous, why not put a barrier of some kind between the pipe and panel enclosure?

That's why I was looking at it. I would rather get the damn thing out of there completely! There is other (telecommunications) equipment in the area also.

 

[roc]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Don ...you are correct about 110.34(F) applying to panels over 600V ... thanks, I went to far in that article. I think the correct reference would be 110.26(F) which just requires the panel to be "located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage".

The panel appears to meet the dedicated space requirement, but is not really protected from damage.

I think the insulation and split PVC (or something similar) would protect the panel from damage. But without some type of protection would that install normally be written up (as it's a pretty vauge provision)?

Plus something still rubs me the wrong way about a highly conductive sweating metal pipe right next to the heart of an electrical system.

 

[iwire]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Originally posted by roc:
I think the insulation and split PVC (or something similar) would protect the panel from damage. But without some type of protection would that install normally be written up

I can tell you in the area I work if pipes can be all around a panel and pass inspection as long as the pipes do not intrude on the required space.

Originally posted by roc:
Plus something still rubs me the wrong way about a highly conductive sweating metal pipe right next to the heart of an electrical system.

The utility feed to your house is out in the elements, once at the pole many bare live parts exposed to rain, no problem there.

[ October 21, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[hbiss]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

That's the answer! I'll wrap the panel up with electrical tape and space it off the wall with porcelain insulators!

 

[roc]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Its an interior Type-1 panel enclosure, so its not listed for wet locations like for exterior equipment (Type-3/4) or overhead wires (which should also have plenty of roof clearance).

The sweating water main pipe is so close it has caused a moisture buildup on the side of the panel, which will deteriorate considerably over time. So I think the insulation (and maybe split PVC to hold that in place and also give a little extra leak protection) would handle that, so it's "protected from damage".

I know if the panel isn't properly bonded it would be a safety hazard anyway, regardless of any metallic pipes in the area. Guess the pipe location just rubbed me the wrong way due to the moisture buildup.

But then again, maybe hbiss is on to something ... hmmmmm ... how about wrapping the panel and pipe in duct tape since I have plenty of that ...

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Rob

[ October 22, 2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: roc ]

 

[big jim]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

The class of panel is determined by its ability to keep water out, not by the materials it is constructed with. Type 3 may require galvanized material but most type 1s I see are also galvanized. No real issue with deteoriation there.

 

[roc]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

The typical residential panels I am aware of (e.g. SQ-D QO/Homeline) are either Type-1 which is just painted thin plain steel that will not keep moisture out, or Type-3R which is weatherproof and painted galvanized steel. But I haven't seen a 3R used inside a house ... usually just outdoor temp service.

The Type-1 is not intended to keep moisture out and can have up to 1/4" openings (I think the NEMA rule is you cant stick a 1/4" rod inside), and usually has no drain holes in the bottom. The Type-3R has drain holes, in addition to being weathertight. I haven?t heard of Type-1S or even galvanized Type-1 panels.

In any case, the panel is not galvanized or moisture resistant. I think the Type-1 will fall apart like a cheap suit here because of exposed plain steel (nicks, scrapes, spots of unpainted edges, surface defects, etc) ... and the moisture getting inside the panel (with nowhere to go too).

I double checked with Square-D and they agree it was an issue. They actually highly recommended insulating the pipe before I mentioned anything ? I started laughing ... nice call Bob (insert high five icon here) ...

I think the solution is insulation and split pvc on the water pipe ... and maybe also touch up the paint and add two 1/8" drain holes at the bottom if it?s also a very damp location in general.

Rob

[ October 22, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: roc ]

 

[big jim]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

O K, I've just seen GE recently and they are all made with galvanized sheet. I have also seen a little sticker on some boxes that says something like : manufactured from galvanized material before painting.
I guess it would depend on the specific brand. If condensation is a real problem on the water pipe, I think it should be insulated just to protect the pipe itself for starters.

 

[roc]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

I will have to keep my eyes open for galv. type-1 panels ... never really thought to look. Prob a good idea in damp basements anyway.

 

[hbiss]

Re: WATER MAIN NEXT TO SERVICE PANEL

Copper busses would be a good idea too!