Water Utility Replacing Metallic Service Lines With Plastic

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golson

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Consultant - Power Quality
Here is an interesting situation that we recently encountered in one of the municipalities where we provide electric utility service. The local water utility's contractor came through a neighborhood and started replacing metallic water service lines to all of the homes with plastic. Most if not all of the homes are older and likely relying upon the metallic water service line as their sole premise grounding electrode rendering the homes without any grounding electrode system once the water lines were replaced. This was brought to our attention as the local electric utility but sadly, it is not our role or responsibility for policing this type of issue and ensuring that private residences are adequately grounded. We've done the right thing by alerting the AHJ but in the end, who ends up being responsible and accountable for any premise grounding system upgrades? Looking for everyone's thoughts and experience in similar situations.
 
golson said:
Here is an interesting situation that we recently encountered in one of the municipalities where we provide electric utility service. The local water utility's contractor came through a neighborhood and started replacing metallic water service lines to all of the homes with plastic. Most if not all of the homes are older and likely relying upon the metallic water service line as their sole premise grounding electrode rendering the homes without any grounding electrode system once the water lines were replaced. This was brought to our attention as the local electric utility but sadly, it is not our role or responsibility for policing this type of issue and ensuring that private residences are adequately grounded. We've done the right thing by alerting the AHJ but in the end, who ends up being responsible and accountable for any premise grounding system upgrades? Looking for everyone's thoughts and experience in similar situations.
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*The major immediate thing to be concerned with is previously masked service neutral problems cropping up once that metal pipe gets replaced.

*As long as there is at least 10 feet of metal pipe in the ground on the customer side that stays connected to the gec, there is still at least 1 recognized electrode. In that case, there may be nothing that can be done- many areas allowed the solo water pipe GE decades ago- the entity replacing the pipe could argue that the services were effectively grandfathered, and that they aren't required to add any electrodes.

*Beyond being a shunt for surges/lightning strikes there really isn't any benefit to having rods. The houses definitely wouldn't be compliant w/out any type of GE, but outside of the potential issues with the hidden neutral problems mentioned above, there is no immediate safety issue when replacing the city water pipes.
 
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I agree with the hundredth user from texas and I'm living proof.

When I replaced my water line I used copper but I sleeved it in pvc so my water pipe doesn't have any contact with the earth until it ties to the city main twenty five feet away from my house, so I would say it does not qualify as a grounding electrode. I only have one ground rod, too. Never had a problem.

I would be curious to know if any masked, lost neutral issues show up.
 
ActionDave said:
I would be curious to know if any masked, lost neutral issues show up.
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I think that that would be the bigger problem, lost neutrals where the current is now returning on the water pipe. Once the metallic pipe is removed then that would be a bigger issue then no electrode.
 
infinity said:
I think that that would be the bigger problem, lost neutrals where the current is now returning on the water pipe. Once the metallic pipe is removed then that would be a bigger issue then no electrode.
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I would think so too, but there are so many dirt worshipers out there we're likely outnumbered for another generation at least.
 
Is city replacing just main lines and reconnecting taps to existing structures or are they replacing everything all the way up to structures?

If just the main lines then they all will still have at least 10 feet of pipe as an electrode, unless main line is closer then 10 feet away, but that is maybe only the case in the "old downtown" type districts

It still will expose those that had lost neutrals and the water piping was carrying their neutral.
 
ptonsparky said:
The installing contractor will find where the neutrals are bad. Hope they are aware of the potential problem.
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Bad enough to be down in a hole cutting the pipe then find voltage across it when it is cut - then factor in an existing water service pipe is probably making everything wet when you cut it on top of everything.

Hope they are aware of the problem as well and have a plan to avoid anyone getting killed over it. Bonding jumper around the cut seems should be a mandatory rule, and you are fired if caught not doing so. When/how to disconnect bonding jumper becomes less clear. Contractor doing this work may want to talk to insurance or an attorney as well to know how to handle the damages that may occur if they open circuit someone's "neutral", because they are going to be the number one target for lawsuits over any damages.
 
It should be noted that even in the absence of any NEC premise grounding electrodes, the system is likely grounded at the utility transformer. Also if its an MGN system, it will be grounded to the utility MGN system. So It is probably very unlikley you have a truly unearthed system.
 
electrofelon said:
It should be noted that even in the absence of any NEC premise grounding electrodes, the system is likely grounded at the utility transformer. Also if its an MGN system, it will be grounded to the utility MGN system. So It is probably very unlikley you have a truly unearthed system.
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True that you generally don't have a truly unearthed system. The concern is probably mostly that there may be places left with no local grounding electrode at the structure.

The importance of that electrode is overblown by some. Areas with high lightning incidents do probably have higher benefits of having local electrodes at structures then those that don't though, otherwise the MGN network on the entire utility system is much more earthing then any single electrode at a customer premises.
 
ActionDave said:
I would be curious to know if any masked, lost neutral issues show up.
Click to expand...

"who was that masked neutral?"

-Why, it was the Lone Ranger

"he left this silver bullet behind. what's that for?"

-That's for grounding your panel.
you shoot it right thru the center of the panel,
and it immediately grounds it.


now you know. the lone ranger was really an unemployed
electrician, moonlighting.
 
Just to clarify the situation a little further. The water utility is apparently replacing the street mains and it turns out that the non-metallic lines being run may be temporary in nature until the project in that area is completed and they then revert back to the metallic service lines before moving on to the next neighborhood. However, during the interim period which might be a month or longer, the metallic services for all premises within the block(s) affected are apparently being disconnected inside the basement wall between the wall and the water meter in order to allow for the temporary non-metallic water service liens to be connected into the water meter and premise piping. If no other grounding electrode exists connected on the premise side of the water connections, then by isolating the metallic water service, the premise is left with no grounding electrode. True that as long as the electric service grounded conductor (neutral) is intact and not compromised, a problem may not arise or be apparent. However, given the general age and conditions of the area, there is no guarantee that a problem may not exist or some other fault condition arise that having a compliant grounding electrode system might otherwise help in mitigating the risks. Some of the comments alluded to a tendency to place too much faith and emphasis in having an earth ground electrode and from a technical perspective there may be differing views. However, if that is exactly what the code expects and has required for countless editions, then why would one not stand behind those basic requirements.

I have spoken with a very well known and highly respected IAEI instructor within our state whom indicated that similar situations have occurred in other jurisdictions and that the isolation of the premise grounding electrode can be a potentially serious situation which needs to be elevated to higher authorities whom can bring all involved to a mutual understanding and agreement on the matter. To me, the simple solution is for the water utility to maintain a jumper across the open circuit to the existing metallic water service lines as a means of maintaining the intent of the code requirements during the period of temporary arrangements however they have stated that the metallic water service lines should not be used as a premise grounding electrode which is in conflict with both current and past NEC requirements. They are taking a position that because of their work, the premise owner or others should be expected to take on the burden and cost of hiring an electrician to install a new grounding electrode system. Without some sort of regulatory or AHJ mandate, this is not something that most premise owners will either understand or agree with much less be willing to shoulder the permitting and contractor costs that may be associated with doing the work.
 
golson said:
Just to clarify the situation a little further. The water utility is apparently replacing the street mains and it turns out that the non-metallic lines being run may be temporary in nature until the project in that area is completed and they then revert back to the metallic service lines before moving on to the next neighborhood. However, during the interim period which might be a month or longer, the metallic services for all premises within the block(s) affected are apparently being disconnected inside the basement wall between the wall and the water meter in order to allow for the temporary non-metallic water service liens to be connected into the water meter and premise piping. If no other grounding electrode exists connected on the premise side of the water connections, then by isolating the metallic water service, the premise is left with no grounding electrode. True that as long as the electric service grounded conductor (neutral) is intact and not compromised, a problem may not arise or be apparent. However, given the general age and conditions of the area, there is no guarantee that a problem may not exist or some other fault condition arise that having a compliant grounding electrode system might otherwise help in mitigating the risks. Some of the comments alluded to a tendency to place too much faith and emphasis in having an earth ground electrode and from a technical perspective there may be differing views. However, if that is exactly what the code expects and has required for countless editions, then why would one not stand behind those basic requirements.

I have spoken with a very well known and highly respected IAEI instructor within our state whom indicated that similar situations have occurred in other jurisdictions and that the isolation of the premise grounding electrode can be a potentially serious situation which needs to be elevated to higher authorities whom can bring all involved to a mutual understanding and agreement on the matter. To me, the simple solution is for the water utility to maintain a jumper across the open circuit to the existing metallic water service lines as a means of maintaining the intent of the code requirements during the period of temporary arrangements however they have stated that the metallic water service lines should not be used as a premise grounding electrode which is in conflict with both current and past NEC requirements. They are taking a position that because of their work, the premise owner or others should be expected to take on the burden and cost of hiring an electrician to install a new grounding electrode system. Without some sort of regulatory or AHJ mandate, this is not something that most premise owners will either understand or agree with much less be willing to shoulder the permitting and contractor costs that may be associated with doing the work.
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NEC intent never was to depend on the water pipe to serve as a back up grounded conductor, which does happen if you have metallic water piping between your house and the one next door if you both have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the water service.

If 10 feet or more of metal piping remains intact then nothing wrong with keeping bonding to the GEC intact, but if continuity to other electrical services in the neighborhood gets interrupted (which seems pretty likely) you will still uncover any open neutral issues when you break the final connection.

Older installs that had no ground rods or other supplemental electrodes would still be NEC compliant if you just installed ground rods, but still will suffer open neutral issues when that last connection is broken if there is indeed an open service neutral.
 
golson said:
However, during the interim period which might be a month or longer, the metallic services for all premises within the block(s) affected are apparently being disconnected inside the basement wall between the wall and the water meter in order to allow for the temporary non-metallic water service liens to be connected into the water meter and premise piping.
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OK, thats a little weird- generally the pipe between the building and the meter belongs to the customer.

golson said:
Some of the comments alluded to a tendency to place too much faith and emphasis in having an earth ground electrode and from a technical perspective there may be differing views.
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We said that b/c there IS too much emphasis placed on the importance of rods. Unless one is exceptionally lucky and has a very low impedance GE rod, that rod isn't going to return enough current back to the source to prevent imbalance and damage to equipment fro a lost neutral.

golson said:
However, if that is exactly what the code expects and has required for countless editions, then why would one not stand behind those basic requirements.
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But the code defined purpose of a grounding (the purpose of a GE) says nothing about taking the place of a neutral (even though cw pipe GE can and does)- the stated purpose of grounding is listed in 250.4(A)(1)....


golson said:
To me, the simple solution is for the water utility to maintain a jumper across the open circuit to the existing metallic water service lines
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That is an excellent idea.

golson said:
however they have stated that the metallic water service lines should not be used as a premise grounding electrode which is in conflict with both current and past NEC requirements
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Unless there is a local amendment that lets them believe this way, they are horribly mistaken


golson said:
They are taking a position that because of their work, the premise owner or others should be expected to take on the burden and cost of hiring an electrician to install a new grounding electrode system. Without some sort of regulatory or AHJ mandate, this is not something that most premise owners will either understand or agree with much less be willing to shoulder the permitting and contractor costs that may be associated with doing the work.
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The big issue here w/respect to liability, is that the contractor could argue that any damages that occurred or could occur are not their fault b/c it wasn't their responsibility to ensure the health of someones neutral.

I cannot imagine the contractors employees not jumping the pipes due to the risks w/ those opened pipe connections
 
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golson said:
Some of the comments alluded to a tendency to place too much faith and emphasis in having an earth ground electrode and from a technical perspective there may be differing views. However, if that is exactly what the code expects and has required for countless editions, then why would one not stand behind those basic requirements.....
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The NEC has gobs of rules that are not rooted in any objective reasoning and some of the rules relating to grounding electrodes are at the top of the list.

Grounding electrodes and the whole NEC required grounding electrode system has precious little to do with the safety of a homeowner's electrical system.
 
I hate the "Water pipe ground" and think things are overall safer without it. I have heard many- and seen a few- instances of people getting shocked by getting between neutral current on the water pipe. I have never heard, "because he didnt have a metal water pipe ground, this horrible thing happened..."
 
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Originally Posted by golson
However, during the interim period which might be a month or longer, the metallic services for all premises within the block(s) affected are apparently being disconnected inside the basement wall between the wall and the water meter in order to allow for the temporary non-metallic water service liens to be connected into the water meter and premise piping.

user 100 said:
OK, thats a little weird- generally the pipe between the building and the meter belongs to the customer.
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I think what is going on is a temporary supply is being provided to customer and connecting to just ahead of meter, then they will install the new main and connect the old tap line to the main while customer is being served by the temp line. Existing line after the "curb stop" will be left as is and reconnected once the new system is complete and has water available for use.

Most water services around here are customers responsibility past the curb stop, with the meter belonging to the water utility - sort of like electric services often having components the customer is responsible for ahead of the meter as well, but the meter is still the property of POCO.
 
Interesting....back when I was still working for a living :D we had water meter contractors unbolt metal "spool pieces" that were installed for future meters. I was sent out on dozens of "He got shocked" calls. We finally required them to jumper across before they removed the spool. But the lazy ones still didn't do it and one company even tried to sue us. They lost.... I happen to agree that with plastic pipe it becomes a non-issue. The neutral problem, if discovered, in the process is a plus for everybody. Older houses and neutral problems are pretty common. It's probably the only way they'd ever get fixed. One thing I'm still not clear on, however, is that on some services there was up to 120V across an open pipe joint even though all of the grounding and bonding was correct. We suspected it was due to poor pole grounds on the primary neutral, which caused the primary return current to use the ground and any buried conductive paths to return to the transformers. We kinda just solved the danger, but not the problem. I still think it's Ohm's guess!
 
Fulthrotl said:
"who was that masked neutral?"

-Why, it was the Lone Ranger

"he left this silver bullet behind. what's that for?"

-That's for grounding your panel.
you shoot it right thru the center of the panel,
and it immediately grounds it.


now you know. the lone ranger was really an unemployed
electrician, moonlighting.
Click to expand...

Must be Tonto was his underpaid apprentice.
 
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