Watts to Amps

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Alwayslearningelec

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So I know that for a single phase load its I=W/V but I see some formulas call for I=W/(PFxV). Do you need to figure in the power factor and why do some calcs not include the PF? Thanks
 
So I know that for a single phase load its I=W/V but I see some formulas call for I=W/(PFxV). Do you need to figure in the power factor and why do some calcs not include the PF? Thanks
Power factor is a term that accounts for the AC waveforms of current and voltage not being synchronized. If you blindly multiply the nominal values (i.e. RMS values, which is a special kind of averaging) of AC voltage and current without thinking about how they are synchronized or not, you get the term that we call apparent power. It has units of VA or kVA, and is commonly represented with the variable S. Apparent power is important, because your distribution equipment needs to be sized for the full voltage and amps, regardless of how well or poorly the waveforms are synchronized That's why transformers are rated in kVA instead of kW.

At any given instant, power = voltage * current. If you add up (i.e. integrate) the value of V*I relative to time over one complete cycle, accounting for instantaneous values of each at every point in time, the average value of V*I is what we call real power (P). It has the units of Watts or Kilowatts. Compare this value to the to S, and the ratio of P/S is what we call power factor. The ratio of real power to apparent power.

On a phase diagram, power and apparent power form the base leg and diagonal respectively of a right triangle (the power triangle). The height leg is what we call reactive power (Q), in units of kVAR. Real power and reactive power combine in Pythagorean theorem to get apparent power. Real power is a measure of power that is consumed and converted to other forms of energy (heat, mechanical motion, light, etc). Apparent power is a measure of electrical power being stored and released in circuit elements like capacitors and inductors, that cause a phase shift between current and voltage.
 
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(I'm sorry..can;t help it)
What time is it ??
Let me show you how to build a watch !!
:)
 
The reason why some calculations may not include power factor, is that it happens to equal 1 for that particular load, and doesn't need to be multiplied. We call this unity power factor.

If you are inclined to learn the theory behind it, I have a Calculus proof in Post #24 on this discussion link. This shows why the concepts of reactive power, real power, and apparent power, can account for multiplying the current and voltage waveforms together, and allow us to think of it in terms of a right triangle that relates the three concepts.
 
Purely resistive loads will have a power factor of 1 (no reactive power, so apparent power equals real power) whereas circuits with motors will have a power factor value less than 1 due to the inductance of the motor (apparent power higher than real power). To re-arrange your equation I = W/(PF*V) with the additional information Carultch mentioned which is that PF = W / VA (real power measured in W, apparent power measured in VA), then you can see that for circuits where the power factor matters is really I = VA / V. Why it matters is that the circuit needs to be sized for the full amount of current, including the current necessary to sustain the magnetic fields of motors for example, not just the current performing work.
 
So I know that for a single phase load its I=W/V but I see some formulas call for I=W/(PFxV). Do you need to figure in the power factor and why do some calcs not include the PF? Thanks
If you're calculating the load of a heater (resistive load) you can ignore using PF in your calculation.
 
Apparent power is a measure of electrical power being stored and released in circuit elements like capacitors and inductors, that cause a phase shift between current and voltage.
Nice write up. I think in the above sentence you mean reactive power, rather than apparent power.

One thing I've never understood in the context of the electrical power grid is the role reactive power plays in terms of frequency regulation and helping with short term overloads.

Cheers, Wayne
 
The reason why some calculations may not include power factor, is that it happens to equal 1 for that particular load, and doesn't need to be multiplied. We call this unity power factor.

If you are inclined to learn the theory behind it, I have a Calculus proof in Post #24 on this discussion link.
I don't think you need calculus for that - it's simple algebra.
 
I don't think you need calculus for that - it's simple algebra.
Read the first post in that linked comment thread. It was a challenge to show why the power triangle works, from first principles. It's simple algebra to use the power triangle. The calculus comes from how we get the average value of a continuous function, and the theory behind why the RMS nominal values are related to the amplitude with a ratio of sqrt(2).
 
Power Factor is always required for calculating power in alternating-current circuits.

Many times, the power factor is close enough to 1 (unity) that omitting it yields results that are close enough for practical purposes, but omitting it should be discouraged.
 
Just algebra:

Cct No1 - Supply Short Circuit Impedance
0,64%​
Supply Fault Level(MVA)
40​
Supply resistance(50Hz Ohms)
0,06534​
6,53E-02​
6,53E-02​
6,53E-02​
6,53E-02​
6,53E-02​
6,53E-02​
Supply reactance(50Hz ohms)
0,2640825​
1,32E+00​
1,85E+00​
2,90E+00​
3,43E+00​
4,49E+00​
5,02E+00​
Cct No2 - Drive Transformer
Rating(kVA)
3000​
Impedance(%)
5,75​
Resistance(50Hz Ohms)
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
5,01E-02​
Reactance(50Hz Ohms)
2,02E-01​
1,01E+00​
1,42E+00​
2,23E+00​
2,63E+00​
3,44E+00​
3,85E+00​
Cct No1 + Cct No2
Resistance(50Hz Ohms)
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
1,15E-01​
Reactance(50Hz Ohms)
4,67E-01​
2,33E+00​
3,27E+00​
5,13E+00​
6,07E+00​
7,93E+00​
8,86E+00​
Cct No3 - Other Lagging Loads - No details
Resistance(50Hz Ohms)
500​
5,00E+02​
5,00E+02​
5,00E+02​
5,00E+02​
5,00E+02​
5,00E+02​
Reactance(50Hz Ohms)
500​
2,50E+03​
3,50E+03​
5,50E+03​
6,50E+03​
8,50E+03​
9,50E+03​

No calculus involved.

This is:

 
From a practical standpoint, such as sizing conductors and OCP devices for branch circuits, what percentage of the time do you feel ohms law is used without power-factor being involved ??
 
Just algebra, No calculus involved.
You are using equations that came from the Laplace transform, which is defined through Calculus. That's what the s stands for, which is the parameter used in the Laplace transform. Working in the s-domain enables Calculus operations of the time domain to be calculated through algebra in the s-domain. Understanding why those equations would work from first principles, is where the Calculus would be involved.
 
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From a practical standpoint, such as sizing conductors and OCP devices for branch circuits, what percentage of the time do you feel ohms law is used without power-factor being involved ??
All the time. When you start with the amp ratings that are already published on your equipment datasheets/nameplates, it has already been accounted for.
 
You are using equations that came from the Laplace transform, which is defined through Calculus. That's what the s stands for, which is the parameter used in the Laplace transform. Working in the s-domain enables Calculus operations of the time domain to be calculated through algebra in the s-domain. Understanding why those equations would work from first principles, is where the Calculus would be involved.
Clearly I do know that. My point is that you simply don't need calculus for trig calculations.
 
From a practical standpoint, such as sizing conductors and OCP devices for branch circuits, what percentage of the time do you feel ohms law is used without power-factor being involved ??
The power factor is always involved, whether it's included in the calculation or not.
How "practical" is it to have people with no understanding of power factor out in the field?
 
Clearly I do know that. My point is that you simply don't need calculus for trig calculations.

Depends on if you want to understand what others have done before you, in figuring out the theory you use, or if you are OK with using the results of the theory that is already established. The run-of-the-mill calculations with power factor are OK with using the established theory, and with using the functions on your calculator without needing to know what is behind them.

With trig calculations on the power triangle, there are two concepts that involve calculus to know what is really going on:
1. Showing from first principles, why you can represent active power, reactive power, and apparent power as a triangle, and what this has to do with the original concept that Power = Voltage*Current on an instantaneous basis.
2. The inner workings of your calculator's software to get the trig functions. This is a question I had, when first introduced to these functions, and a couple of my other peers also had the same question. The teachers understandably wouldn't provide an answer, because it is far beyond the scope of a high school class. My father however, knew plenty about this, and had no trouble putting it in terms I could understand. If you are curious, keywords to look up are Taylor Series (easiest method to understand) and Chebychev Series (what calculators really do, as it is more efficient to compute).
 
Depends on if you want to understand what others have done before you, in figuring out the theory you use, or if you are OK with using the results of the theory that is already established. The run-of-the-mill calculations with power factor are OK with using the established theory, and with using the functions on your calculator without needing to know what is behind them.

With trig calculations on the power triangle, there are two concepts that involve calculus to know what is really going on:
1. Showing from first principles, why you can represent active power, reactive power, and apparent power as a triangle, and what this has to do with the original concept that Power = Voltage*Current on an instantaneous basis.
2. The inner workings of your calculator's software to get the trig functions. This is a question I had, when first introduced to these functions, and a couple of my other peers also had the same question. The teachers understandably wouldn't provide an answer, because it is far beyond the scope of a high school class. My father however, knew plenty about this, and had no trouble putting it in terms I could understand. If you are curious, keywords to look up are Taylor Series (easiest method to understand) and Chebychev Series (what calculators really do, as it is more efficient to compute).
I disagree but what do I know?
I like this:

Mendelssohn Violin Concerto E Minor OP.64 - 2nd movement

 
That is fine for linear, displacement, power factors, but calculus is unavoidable for distortion power factor, since trig is not sufficient for the calculation for a specified non-sinusoidal waveform.
I do use non-linear harmonics like 5th, 7th, 11th, 13th etc. I don't need calculus for that.
But, in any case, the original poster isn't asking for that.
 
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